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Ernest Voyard
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Posted: 20 January 2020 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

CNBC LINKThey seem to
get wrong why Winter Soldier worked. In part it was because they
didnít make Captain America move away from his moral inclinations. At
least they address that in the next paragraph about Superman.

Edited by Ernest Voyard on 20 January 2020 at 9:12pm
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 20 January 2020 at 10:56pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Superman shouldn't be this hard to get right.

But Hollywood reasoning is always unnecessarily contrived.

They have two modes, basically: go with has been proven to work (Christopher Reeve version, remade by Singer) or go with the hotshot director du jour and let him do whatever he pleases (Man of Steel/Snyder).

They tried both of those things, and none worked so now they're saying the character itself doesn't work for modern audiences or some nonsense.

But SUPERMAN RETURNS didn't work because it attempted to follow a series that was mostly forgotten in the public conscience and it was also a terrible, terrible script (and terribly miscast in every role) and MAN OF STEEL didn't work because Snyder is an idiot that couldn't even begin to comprehend the essence of the character (Cavill himself was fine IMHO)

That Marvel could manage a much more complicated/outdated character for some like Captain America with great success only adds insult to injury. 

But it's the executives' incompetence that's to blame here, not the character. And they will never admit that.




Edited by Rodrigo castellanos on 20 January 2020 at 10:57pm
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 22 January 2020 at 6:43am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

It's easy to overcomplicate things.
Movie execs seem to blame everything else but the movie they made. For example, SUPERMAN RETURNS failed because it was a bad movie.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 22 January 2020 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

When I started working on Superman, one of the first things I noticed was how many fans referred to him as a "boy scout"--as a pejorative!*

That's the core of the problem right there. Especially as we have seen more and more of those people assume positions of power in Hollywood, and in comics.

____________________

* I had Luthor refer to Superman as a "boy scout" to illustrate that Luthor was a bad guy, not as a negative comment on Superman himself.

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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 22 January 2020 at 9:38am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

When I started working on Superman, one of the first things I noticed was how many fans referred to him as a "boy scout"--as a pejorative!

I think they still do, especially those fans that eschew Superman for the edgier, "bad-ass" Batman, many postulating that the latter can, with enough preparation, defeat anyone.

His "super power" is essentially the Boy Scout motto!






Edited by Brian Rhodes on 22 January 2020 at 9:41am
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 22 January 2020 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Anyone who is incapable of seeing the greater good and believing that someone could be better than them or us, should not be allowed anywhere near Superman (or Captain America for that matter)
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 22 January 2020 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Captain America and Superman are my two favorite characters (and always have been) so I often have to debate their merits with other fans who prefer heroes who have an "edge". 

I remember when the Marvel's first Captain America movie was in the planning stages and many people were predicting that the character wouldn't be successful because of the same old reasons that people have always used (hokey, boring, outdated, and of course the Boy Scout reasoning used for Superman). Marvel Studios guided the character from that first movie to the most recent Avengers movie* and he is a very relevant character these days. He didn't have to get dark or kill someone so that a director could "get" the character. He just had to be what he was: Heroic. I've been teaching high school for over 20 years and the recognition of Captain America has gone from "Who is that guy?" to "He's my favorite Avenger!".  There's no reason that the same thing can't be done for Superman.


*I still take issue with how the film finished Cap's story arc. I don't think he'd be that selfish. A happy ending for Chris Evans but not a proper way for Cap to finish.


Edited by Shawn Kane on 22 January 2020 at 9:58am
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Phil Kreisel
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Posted: 22 January 2020 at 10:27am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Why it's hard to make a Superman movie...

The damn actors aren't flying when we film them leaping off the building.  They just fall to the ground.  "Next!"
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 25 January 2020 at 3:19pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I'm sure I've posted this elsewhere on this forum, but doesn't the popularity of Captain America in the MCU prove that audiences aren't bored, or jaded by "boy-scout" (and yes, I hate the phrase when used as a pejorative!) heroes? That, on the contrary, they hunger for them?

I think Cavill is a decent choice for Superman, but he's been badly let down by the writing. And the costume.
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Jason Scott
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Posted: 26 January 2020 at 3:22am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

It interesting to read this 'boy-scout' argument after watching the recent Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover on tv and the reception granted to Brandon Routh reprising the role of Superman.

As all over the place as that crossover is, and as unneccessarily burdened with the Kingdom Come backstory as Routh's Superman now was, the feedback from most folks was on how great it was to see a more hopeful, and inspiring Superman.

So I think there is a real disconnect there between what audiences really want from the character and what movie executives just think they want. Ironically, towards the end of the Justice League movie it seemed like the character was finally starting to get there. But of course having been put off by the dour and mean version in the previous movies, it seems like almost nobody bothered to go see that one on the big screen. So the wrong message was probably sent, yet again.

P.S. It has been wryly amusing to see the public embrace Captain America on the big screen. As a kid I used to cite Cap as my favourite comic character, and often got a puzzled "Captain America?!? Really?" (Of course this was in the heyday of the likes of the Punisher and Wolverine gaining popularity.)

And now of course he's cited by many folks as their favourite of the onscreen Avengers. Just goes to show you that a little bit of sincerity in portraying the characters ideals can go a very long way indeed...


Edited by Jason Scott on 26 January 2020 at 3:25am
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 26 January 2020 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

To me, the real answer to "Why it's hard to make a Superman movie" is "Because Christopher Reeve was the perfect Superman, and you cannot improve on perfection".

Both the George Reeves tv show and the Christopher Reeves movies got it right *. Superman is the definition of a wholesome, moral hero. He's supposed to be the hero who inspires others, whether its normal people or other heroes. Not someone who kills in cold blood or lets other die. (JB having Superman execute the Phantom Zone villains from an alernate universe made sense; Superman's actions in the more recent movies with Henry Cavill do not.)

* In Superman 2, Clark going back to beat up the jerk trucker who beat him up when he didn't have his powers was fairly out of character.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 27 January 2020 at 3:11am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I think the point of that scene is often missed. Superman doesn't go back for personal vengeance. That trucker treated everyone badly. He harassed the cook and the wait staff as well as Clark. As a bully, he needed to learn that bullying comes with unforeseen consequences. The guy you knock down today might just come back tomorrow, so you really shouldn't treat people that way. How that's going to leave your truck overturned in the parking lot, I don't know, but it will, and you'll deserve it when it happens to you, so stop being such a jerk, pal. That's the real message of that scene. 

Also, from a Hollywood script-writing perspective, you can't introduce a clown like that and not have him get his comeuppance somehow. Personally, I'd have preferred it if Lois had decked him with a ketchup bottle, but aside from its predictability, the scene doesn't bother me.


Edited by Brian Hague on 27 January 2020 at 3:14am
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