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James Best
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Posted: 19 January 2020 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Baseball does not have a very balanced history when it comes to punishing those who cheated.

The Black Sox threw the World Series for money, but it is not like MLB retroactively awarded the championship to them since they were far and away the better team.

The '51 Giants did their own version of sign stealing to keep themselves in the pennant race and beat the Dodgers in the Bobby Thompson "shot heard round the world" game. The bigwigs didn't go back and give the pennant to Brooklyn.

I have been a Dodger fan since 1977 and I am upset that the level of cheating denied my team the chance to legitimately win the World Series. But I have zero faith in the idea that the baseball establishment is going to balance the scales properly. 

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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 19 January 2020 at 10:08pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

The Black Sox scandal mainly happened because their owner Charles Commiskey was a cheapskate who screwed his players out of money. Yet nothing was done to him, and he even had a stadium or two named after him. Mainly because Kennesaw Mountain Landis was very much the owners' toady when it came to handling the situation.

What these players, coaches, GMs, etc did is far worse than what Pete Rose did, but the players haven't been punished while the coaches and GMs have so far been given a slap on the hand. How is that fair?








Edited by Brian Floyd on 19 January 2020 at 10:09pm
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Doug Centers
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Posted: 20 January 2020 at 4:44am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Yeah, baseball owners seem to have made "gambling" the one thing they have put their stamp of 100% zero tolerance on.
The Black Sox were all acquitted in a court of law, but since gambling was pervasive for years in baseball Landis set out to send a message to all to clean it up.
Rose, by all accounts, when he did bet on his team, it was to win.

This type of cheating has affected a lot of jobs and confidences. The owners need to get with the Players Union and grow some balls.

Myself, I've been growing farther away from present day baseball since the advent of SABRE metrics, over shifting and specialization to the n'th degree.
Heck, when Miguel Cabrera won the Triple Crown a few years back, there was a movement that said he shouldn't win the MVP because his WAR wasn't high enough.
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 20 January 2020 at 10:25am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

The only place that WAR and some other stats matter is in Fantasy Baseball, not the real thing. 

There will be a day that I'll be done with baseball: The day they add the DH to the National League.

I prefer the strategy of a team having to decide whether or not to lift a pitcher who is doing well in favor of a batter who can actually hit. And the DH has not been used as originally intended for years. It was supposed to extend careers of players who were too old or broken down from injuries to field but that could still hit. Not to provide careers to players who can't field to begin with. 
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 20 January 2020 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I don't concur with that assessment of the original
intention. I think it was introduced originally as a
response to the dominance of pitchers at the time. And
then when it was trialled in the AL, it resulted in
higher attendances in response to more hits. An upshot
was extending the career of players like Yastrzemski,
but I don't believe that was the rationale in
introducing it in the first place.
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Steven Myers
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Posted: 20 January 2020 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

From doctoring balls to corking bats, there have been some scandals. Steroids was the big one, though. And I do know gambling is an awful stain, but there's no evidence it helped or hurt Pete Rose's teams from winning.

And there is definitely not a consensus that the White Sox would have won in 1919. 

It does seem that Baseball comes down on cheaters much harsher than Football, huh? The Pats have been caught using technology to cheat, plus the deflate thing. The coach is still there.
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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 22 January 2020 at 7:19am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

IMO, the should remove all references of "World Series Champions" from the Astros and Red Sox.  Not giving it to the other teams, but leaving each series "blank".  Force all those who received rings to return them.  Force the team to return the trophies.  Erase any and all statistics by the Astros and Sox in the WS.

NO one deserves to benefit in any way from those 2 series by the "winners".


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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 22 January 2020 at 9:42am | IP Logged | 8 post reply


We are really in uncharted territory here - Houston seems
to think removing the GM and manager is enough. They held
a fan event after the news broke, and their social media is
bragging about some recently won awards. I popped into the
Houston Chronicle website, and they have a feature on Tony
LaRussa cheating in the 1980s, an attempt to frame the
story as an "everyone cheats and it's been happening for
years" approach.

I don't think the MLB nor the Astros get the gravity of
this.




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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 22 January 2020 at 10:49am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

What disgusts me is that a. The Dodgers were the victims in both cases and b. This is worse than what Pete Rose did and just as bad if not worse than the Black Sox, but there's nothing being done to the players involved.


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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 17 February 2020 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply



I am glad to see players and press speaking out about MLB and Houston's half-
assed attempt to sweep this under the rug.

This doesn't look like it's over by a long shot - while the players struck a deal
to testify without consequence, the other teams aren't having it.

My prediction - the players who cheated don't make it through the full season.
They will be ostracized to the point of early retirement, or the situation gets so
into their head that they get kicked down to the minors in short order.

Or maybe that's just what I want to happen! What I don't want to see is
pitchers beaning them. I want their pride and careers to suffer, but baseball
should not be about physical injury.


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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 17 February 2020 at 8:52pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply


Brian: "This is worse than what Pete Rose did and just as bad if not worse than
the Black Sox, but there's nothing being done to the players involved."

*****

It seems like everyone is talking about reinstating Pete Rose since the cheating
scandal erupted:

Jimmy Kimmel
Live


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Bob Simko
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Posted: 17 February 2020 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I have to disagree...personal feelings...that this is worse than the Black Sox. I
don't even see it as bad...it's bad, but not Black Sox level bad. I also disagree
that it is at the same level or worse than Pete Rose. Baseball has one pretty
central rule everyone is made aware of...don't bet on baseball. Rose's offense
is compounded by the fact that he continually lied about it until proof would
come up. And Rose as never shown remorse.

Every team tries to pick up signs, or look for a "tell" to figure pitchers out, but
the fact that NO ONE in the Astros organization would take a stand and say
this is too far definitely is a cause for discipline. If they had put as much effort
into just reviewing video of pitchers as they did setting up this elaborate
operation, they would've been fine. I don't think MLB's consequences have
been nearly strong enough this, and the lack of any self-awareness as to how
bad this was by the team is disgraceful.
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