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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132303
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| Posted: 17 December 2019 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | 1
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As NASA and other space agencies peer deeper and deeper into the universe, we have seen no sign of life on another planet. We have not detected any radiation signals that suggest a repeated pattern. There are no lights in space that indicate an artificial source. We have seen no earth sized exo-planets in the Goldilocks zone. It seems we are alone in the universe. ••• Consider this: take an eight ounce tumbler to the Atlantic or Pacific shores. Scoop up a full glass of seawater. Look! No proof of whales. That small glass of water represents, compared to the ocean, how much of the universe we have surveyed.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 18 December 2019 at 9:10am | IP Logged | 2
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Peter - Space is big. Really, really big.
Ah, you know the rest.
But I find this - and Mr. Byrne's idiom of a glass of water in the ocean to proof of whales - rather astonishing anyhow. Comparing a glass of water to the ocean... and we KNOW what the ocean is. We KNOW what a glass is. We know (vaguely) the relationship between that tumbler's capacity and the size of the seas.
We have posited all this with logic and facts - no divine intervention required. We have learned enough to use our BRAINS to determine facts. And the generations that will follow us* will learn even more, between better designed instruments and better thinking.
The wondrous thing about the dancing bear is that it dances at all, not the quality of its dancing.
*Unless we wipe ourselves out. Which would be an achievement, albeit of questionable quality.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132303
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| Posted: 18 December 2019 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 3
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Imagine Proxima B, the “Earth-like” planet recently found to be orbiting Proxima Centauri, to have intelligent life, and cultures at least as advanced as our own, using the same technology. Were that the case, obviously we would have discovered them as soon as we started looking. So some of the parameters need to be altered. Suppose the intelligent cultures there are 100 years behind us. Or two hundred. Or two thousand. Now they might as well be invisible. Go the other way. 100 years ahead of us. Two hundred. Two thousand. Likely to be using technology beyond anything we can imagine. And don’t forget they might have evolved a high technological culture and blown themselves up. Now extrapolate this over the BILLIONS of planets established in the Milky Way. That eight ounce tumbler becomes even more appropriate. We are not alone.
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Peter Hicks
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1891
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| Posted: 18 December 2019 at 11:59am | IP Logged | 4
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I merely brought up the idea that we thus far seem to be alone in the universe with the feeling that if we had found bacteria on Mars, or we saw an Earth sized rock in the Goldilocks zone of the majority of stars that we looked at, it would be more tempting to say that the existence of life on Earth was not unique. And hence, the discovery or suspicion of life off Earth would make it harder for creationists to argue that God uniquely created life only on this planet.
Since space is apparently infinite, the search for life elsewhere will never end.
And since it's Christmas time, I recall an episode of the 1980s run of the Twilight Zone wherein centuries from now, a human ship finds the first proof of intelligent life on another planet. All life was destroyed on this planet around year 0 by our calendar, when their star went nova. And then the ship's chaplain realizes this was "The Star" from the Christmas story. God wiped out an entire alien civilization to announce the birth of Jesus.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1650
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| Posted: 18 December 2019 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | 5
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JB pretty much covered the point regarding trying to draw conclusive results from an infinitesimally small sample.
When religious people say to me "You don't believe in God, but you believe in aliens??" I say: No I don't "believe" in aliens. I think that, on the balance of probabilities, alien life has existed, exists, or will exist elsewhere in the universe. More importantly though, I go about my daily life acting as though aliens don't exist, until it's conclusively proven that they do; can you please do the same for God?
Atheists aren't running around saying aliens have told us to do this and that, starting wars and causing untold misery, and preparing for (after)life, based on the alleged decrees of aliens. Can religious people say the same regarding their belief in God?
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12444
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| Posted: 18 December 2019 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | 6
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Not believing in gods is purely uncomplicated, there being no rational basis for such a belief. Even an agnostic does not acknowledge more than an atheist, in that regard. It is believers who must grapple with the complexity of believing, for the moment a theist asserts a belief in god(s), he must define that divinity, or risk speaking sheer nonsense, and once that definition is proffered, it becomes instantly testable against reason.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132303
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| Posted: 18 December 2019 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 7
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1650
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| Posted: 19 December 2019 at 1:46am | IP Logged | 8
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Unfortunately, having recently had a "discussion" (if you can call a Twitter exchange that) with a well-intentioned believer, what's extraordinary is the lengths to which a believer will go to perform the most complex mental gymnastics, simply to assert that there's a kindly old man in the sky.
Witness some of the arguments/questions he posed to me, when I said that all I needed was independently verifiable evidence:
QUOTE:
Koroush, the proof that [Jesus] existed was written by the historians Tacitus as well as Josephus...
...First, who told you life is short? What do you mean by short? Based on what observable standard is it short? Is it short simply because you want more of it?
How do you as an Atheist determine that suffering is wrong? Doesn't that assume a standard of right?
Would you agree that according to Athiesm that life originated from the impersonal, plus time, plus chance?...
Have you ever gotten a vaccination? Most likely your parents took you to get one. As a child you likely cried and pain was involved. You suffered. Were your parents/caregivers not good despite the limited suffering you endured so you could be healthy in the end?
Last reply, I promise.... You've still not defined why the world is imperfect... |
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As you can see, it's all based the premise that we begin with accepting that God exists, and is good, and thus the argument then revolves around me, and atheists in general, proving such things as life being short, the world being imperfect, suffering being bad, and indeed, even the definition of suffering itself!
It's ingenious in its simplicity: as a believer, question everything anyone says to you, and the physical laws of the universe, but never question your own faith!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 19 December 2019 at 5:27am | IP Logged | 9
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Writing in 116 CE, Tacitus can hardly be considered a reliable source. And he reports on Jesus as the founder of “Christianity,” as the Romans called the “mischievous superstition” Nero blamed for the burning of Rome in 65 CE.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 19 December 2019 at 6:14am | IP Logged | 10
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Was Tacitus providing direct evidence of the life and death of Jesus of Nazareth, or... repeating the Christians' own foundational story?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 19 December 2019 at 6:24am | IP Logged | 11
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Describing a history of the Jews, Tacitus had this to say:“The Jews are said to have been refugees from the island of Crete who settled in the remotest corner of Libya in the days when, according to the story, Saturn was driven from his throne by the aggression of Jupiter.” Should we take this as proof of the existence of Jupiter and Saturn?
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1650
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| Posted: 19 December 2019 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 12
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Both of you have answered in much the same way I did:
QUOTE:
| Chris, please stop. None of this is evidence. Vaccinations are scientifically proven to work. Scant non-contemporary 3rd hand accounts of the possible existence of a mythical man are not proof that he lived & performed any miracles. By that standard, Thor & Hercules also existed. |
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Didn't convince him of course, but oh well.
I don't think the word "evidence" really works when dealing with believers. I've had someone swear to me that they've talked directly to Jesus Christ, and thus it should be considered reliable first-hand evidence.
The fundamental issue of course is that if you brainwash someone from an early enough age, they will stand on their head and insist until their dying breath that everyone else is upside-down.
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