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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132133
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 6:42am | IP Logged | 1
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...possible exception...••• There are no “possible exception(s)”. If something already exists, one cannot subsequently be part of its creation. That creation is in the Past, done, finished. Anything added is extrapolation.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12406
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 6:52am | IP Logged | 2
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As much as the US Supreme Court has creatively interpreted the Constitution over hundreds of years, often radically changing or even adding to its original meaning in incredibly influential ways, no Justice of the Court could be said to have created it.
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Greg McPhee Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 5064
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 3
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Honestly, I can't think of any other possible exception besides Daredevil. Wood and Miller fundamentally changed the character's foundations, and that certainly deserves permanent mention.
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Okay, but...
Wolverine's costume has been re-designed numerous times by people such as JB, Jim Lee and Marc Silvestri. Does that mean they created?
I like Miller's run yet he picked a lot existing Marvel lore and characters for it. The Kingpin and The Punisher from Spider-Man. Bullseye was already there and Miller made him more than just a Flash-like villain with a gimmick.
I'd say Roger McKenzie began the trend of stripping DD down more to street level type stories.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132133
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 4
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Roger Stern gets credit and royalties for his "creation" of Hobgoblin, which has long struck me as a bit odd. Taking an existing character's schtick and applying it to someone else seems something less than an act of "creation" to me. Ironically, when we were working together on LOST GENERATION, Rog dredged up a character who had appeared in only one story in the 1940s and grafted his origin onto one of my characters--which meant that, technically, I could no longer say I had "created" the character. He'd been transformed into something pre-existing.
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Greg McPhee Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 5064
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 5
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Roger Stern gets credit and royalties for his "creation" of Hobgoblin, which has long struck me as a bit odd. Taking an existing character's schtick and applying it to someone else seems something less than an act of "creation" to me. ========================================================
I wasn't aware of that. Even Roger has said in interviews he was basically riffing on the Green Goblin without tying the Hobgoblin back to the other versions. It was a way to bring the Goblin-themed villain back without bringing back Norman or making Harry don the costume again.
Edited by Greg McPhee on 03 December 2019 at 8:34am
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132133
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 7:40am | IP Logged | 6
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Yes, Rog didn't put together Hobgoblin with any intent to claim "creation". That was Marvel's doing.Which was itself odd, given how stingy they used to be about apportioning creation credits. Lawyers too a'feared that might imply ownership.
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Greg McPhee Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 5064
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 8:33am | IP Logged | 7
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Yes, Rog didn't put together Hobgoblin with any intent to claim "creation".
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More like he wanted to tell a good Spider-Man story being his intention.
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Joe S. Walker Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 605
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 8:48am | IP Logged | 8
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Imagine Tom King being credited as the co-creator of Mister Miracle. Or the Vision.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132133
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 9:33am | IP Logged | 9
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In a semi-amusing way, this discussion reminds me of times, over the years, when I have said I did not create Wolverine, but he IS my fault!
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Brian Rhodes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3298
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 10
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Hm. So, Chris Evans, who has played a key member of two Marvel teams created by Stan Lee, still hasn't portrayed a character created by Stan Lee.
Nor has Chris Hemsworth, for that matter.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 11
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I blame the Image boys, btw, for turning "create" into an active verb and confusing the issue. I recall one of their stunts was to swap books, and the ads ran something like "This month Todd McFarlane will not create SPAWN..." Even setting aside the minimal actual "creation" that occurred in SPAWN, it still happened just that once, and if Lee or Larsen or Liefeld did an issue, it would be as a "guest artist", not a "creator". Mind you, a lot of familiar terms from the Sixties and Seventies got screwed up in the Eighties. Guest appearances started to be called "crossovers". Anything with super powers was a "mutant". And, of course, "graphic novel" came to be applied to any crap that happened to be square-bound. No wonder "create" also took a hit.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132133
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Posted: 03 December 2019 at 10:48am | IP Logged | 12
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Hm. So, Chris Evans, who has played a key member of two Marvel teams created by Stan Lee, still hasn't portrayed a character created by Stan Lee.Nor has Chris Hemsworth, for that matter. •• Mythology compounds the confusion. Did Stan and Jack "create" Thor? Of course not. There have been many version of Thor over the centuries (which is one reason I was able to use a character by that name in JK4W). Stan and Jack stitched together their own version of the character, and that version was, at first, very different from the traditional mythology. Altho not, it should be noted, terribly different from a version that appeared in BATMAN 127!
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