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Brian Hague
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Posted: 29 November 2019 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Funny thing about the gollies, my friend and his much-younger wife met due to their anime fandom, so their house was decorated floor to ceiling with tiny Motokos, which I'm not certain is altogether a different thing... :-)

It's not entirely the same, to be sure, but I'm not sure it's entirely apart from it either. 

As for the television series, I don't have any faith in Lindelof to be able to tell a story, so his appropriation of one of the most tightly crafted ones out there is laughable. Sad, but laughable.


Edited by Brian Hague on 29 November 2019 at 12:47pm
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 29 November 2019 at 1:04pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Brian said it all, really.

But I'm gonna address some stuff anyway just for the heck of it.

I thought he acknowledged what The Joker did to Batgirl in The Killing Joke was also wrong?

He seems to regret KILLING JOKE and its effects. I think he is being too hard on himself. The book is problematic, but it still has a lot of great stuff in it, and I ultimately stand by it (personal opinion, of course).

Also, it wasn't meant to be in continuity. Barbara could've been shown running around the rooftops in the next issue of BATMAN and nobody would've bat an eye. If DC decided that to not happen, it's their own fault, not Moore's.

How a creative cul-de-sac becomes the main highway and how we go from spinner racks in every corner shop to a specialist retailer in maybe every fifth town.

Don't be ridiculous. That process had already begun when Moore was still cleaning toilets in Northampton.

Is it really such a creative thing to take the old Fawcett Captain Marvel, and Captain Marvel Jr. and call them Marvelman and Marvelboy with different hair color? 

No, nobody claims it was, and it wasn't Alan Moore who created Marvelman, it was Mick Anglo. So...?

Is it really creative to take Charlton's Blue Beetle and say he's an Owl, or add moving blobs of ink (now how fantasy is that) on the blank face of the suit wearing The Question etc.? 

No, and nobody claims otherwise again. But how many movies, TV series and graphic novels in the best selling lists have you seen featuring Captain Atom, Blue Beetle or The Question? Not much, huh? I've already said it and I'll say it again, what makes WATCHMEN special and creative isn't the characters.

They decided not to desecrate the Charlton originals, that's all... how can Moore pretend to have created these characters out of whole cloth?

He doesn't. Apart from the inspirations being completely obvious he's been super transparent about the whole process.

Take Batman out of that and The Killing Joke would they have sold so well?

Wow. So when he doesn't use the original characters (WATCHMEN) he is wrong and when he does (KILLING JOKE) he is also wrong? The guy can't catch a break.

As for the television series, I don't have any faith in Lindelof to be able to tell a story, so his appropriation of one of the most tightly crafted ones out there is laughable. Sad, but laughable.

Agreed 100%




Edited by Rodrigo castellanos on 29 November 2019 at 1:05pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 29 November 2019 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Jeanette Khan in  a 1988 Publishorial was crowing about selling the option rights for a Watchmen movie and named the excited movie people who wanted to do it justice.

I can't know what people here do or don't know. If I'm supposed to educate from the time Watchman was first conceived of via DC acquiring (buying, ooh, filthy capitalists) the Charlton comics heroes onward, the major themes of the many stories of Philip K. Dick heavily drawn on for Alan Moore's great creation, well I guess I'll accept being a Martian whatever that means. Because I doubt people have read 'Oh To Be A Blobbel'.

I'm really noticing the extremism of many of Mr. Moore's fans. I have less of a problem with Alan Moore having his feelings about what he did and went through which he is entitled to... it's those outraged on his behalf that are up there with the brigade of self-flagellating Jack Kirby was the biggest victim in history sort. Talk about lacking in perspective and experience, that's all I can say. None of this is making fans happy, if you are not enjoying a light form of entertainment good luck to you, keep studying those few things and their handbooks and college courses to be an expert uber alles, and not know the larger reality. I don't know all the larger reality but I do know not to say 'F' Alan Davis! I've pointed out how Marvel Man etc. were simply a continuation of the old golden age Captain Marvel family, but that hasn't penetrated any more that how there would be no Watchman if DC hadn't bought the Charlton characters every single one of them are Squadron Supreme copies/knockoffs.

Alan Davis unfortunately is one of my favorite writers and artists, laugh if you will in your superior knowingness but I enjoy his work a lot more than Alan Moore's often depressing, violent especially toward female characters dead-end deconstructions with at best black humor. I've dropped acid and I can tell Mr. Moore has too, but I would never see it as a good thing to combine it with mainstream comic books from a large publisher. I don't know half as much about Mr. Davis, I don't want to, I only need know he made some excellent comics that continue something rather than ending.

Negativity and darkness, pretension and absolutist morality, mockery and depression... what a mess, just like the conventions and the once humble form of entertainment the comic book form has become.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 29 November 2019 at 1:27pm
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 29 November 2019 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I've dropped acid and I can tell Mr. Moore has too (...)

That makes three of us, Rebecca.

(Funniest line in the entire thread, btw!)
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 29 November 2019 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Here's what I got from that...

"The nerve of these Moore fans to be informed. They are ruining everything. How dare they know what they are talking about? Why can't they be happy and ignorant, like I am? I don't know what I'm talking about and I don't want to. But I do have a lot of opinions about things, so everyone please listen while I run down this one particular writer, using generally accepted attitudes, rather than facts. Because capitalism is good without exception and anything done in service to it is above reproach. That is the larger reality these bad knowingness people fail to understand with their lack of experience. So let's support Alan Davis, not support Jack Kirby, and just get along, like we all used to back in never."

Do I have that right, Rebecca? If not, I'm going to have to get my Fourth Planet translator repaired.

And here's the difference between the amateur-hour Squadron Supreme, which does meet your previously mentioned criteria of being about comic books and nothing else, and Watchmen, which does not... (Please pardon my moral absolutism and ignorance here about how the world works with screwing over creators being a good thing no one should be upset about.)

The Squadrons Supreme and Sinister are outright intellectual property theft done by one company to "poke fun at" and run down the marketability of another company's characters. Every garbage story with these characters is a mockery and a thumbing of the nose from Marvel to DC. They are portrayed as bad people either from malice, violence, insanity, or naivete every time out of the gate. 

Marvel's lawyers warned against using the same approach in Gruenwald's 12-issue series when he wanted to appropriate DC villains along similar lines, giving us "WildCard," "The Puffin," "The Lynx," and such. Gruenwald boo-hoo'ed this onerous creative restriction from the legal department by calling his WildCard character "Remnant," since, snif, that was all that was left of his once-brilliant idea. So sad.

Moore submitted a proposal for Charlton's characters that was rejected. It was DC that suggested creating new characters and going forward. The Watchmen bear only a superficial resemblance to the Charlton ones, serving as "types" rather direct imitations. Nite Owl is a gimmick hero with a flying craft. He does not bear significant resemblance to Blue Beetle otherwise, and in fact, much is done to separate and differentiate the two. But no, all that matters to the haters (like those here) is that originally he started in one place. That he wound up in another is immaterial. The intellectually illegitimate Squadrons never rose above their Not Brand Ecch-style beginnings. Neither did the Imperial Guard for that matter. And they were a cheap-jack, cowardly attack* on the properties of another company. 

The Watchmen, on the other hand, was done in-house, an attack on no one, and never existed at the level of mere pretenders, appearing in issue #1 as fully imagined, fully differentiated characters. They had different personalities, different motivations, different origins, and different frames of reference. Those elements had nothing to do with the Charlton group. You may disagree, but you fail to acknowledge any of the background and depth of Watchmen in doing so. Hey, go right ahead, though. Watchmen detractors know one little background detail and parade it about like they therefore know everything, puffed up with their own much-treasured sense of judgement and derision.

But that's not negative of them, is it? No-o-o. 

* Hey, you can dance to that... :-)


Edited by Brian Hague on 29 November 2019 at 2:41pm
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 29 November 2019 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Brian, I’ve given a fair few examples of Moore’s appropriation of scenes, stories etc throughout this thread. 

Skizz & how Rorschach deals with the guy with the dogs being two examples.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 01 December 2019 at 6:26am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

So from the last few pages I'm guessing this is the wrong thread to discuss the TV show in the TV forum?
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Tim O Neill
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Posted: 01 December 2019 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply



Yes, let's get back to the TV show - this thread is
starting to sound like poorly written Alan Moore dialogue.

Last week's episode was my favorite in an already fantastic
series - "This Extraordinary Being" explores the backstory
of Hooded Justic. It's a genius solution for a mysterious
origin.

Jamelle Bouie's op-ed for the New York Times is an
excellent piece on race, injustice, and what makes a
vigilante:

New York Times


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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 01 December 2019 at 4:12pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

This is strange, I had some kind of reaction between my browser and here where I wasn't seeing some posts or seeing old ones and thinking they were new. I noticed something like this once before. If I know it's happening I just have to refresh.

Which isn't to say I'm not a pompous ass sometimes, but not as thick seeming a one. Oh well, enough, people should be able to just talk about watching the tv series really, apologies.

One thing special about the movie that I thought was very effective visually was The Hooded Justice in the prologue/flashback bit. It made me somehow wish there had been a Justice Society movie made in the early '40s. Along the lines of the old Batman serial with that batcave and a sinister presence to 'the' Batman.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 01 December 2019 at 4:13pm
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Christopher Frost
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Posted: 01 December 2019 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Last weeks episode was fantastic. Let's hope that tonights episode is up to par, especially since we are nearing the end of the season. Good stuff so far.
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Carlos Velasco
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Posted: 02 December 2019 at 1:35am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Yeah, the movie, while vastly inferior to the comic, managed to look real cool.

I think it's a real shame that millions of people will see the movie or watch the series and never read the comic thinking it's more or less the same.

Another think I hated about the movie (apart from the slow motion, the abuse of pop music, the modified ending, the lack of the pirates comics...) was the Ozymandias casting.

About Moore, I'm only a fan of what he did in the 80s... I don't know what happened to the guy after that. One of the reasons I love 80s comic books is that you could find great dark comics created by Miller or Moore and great comics in a much more classic vein created by Byrne, Roy Thomas and others. In the end, it goes to show that super heroes are a very versatile genre that you can use to write science fiction, drama, action or even comedy.

Super hero stories remind me of rock and roll, that so many alternative musicians tried to get away from but failed miserably. I'm a huge fan of 80s' Moore and some alternative musicians that have even said that they hated rock and roll when some of their records were technically rock albums. When you do a dark super hero story where heroes are kind of evil, you are still doing a super hero story.


Edited by Carlos Velasco on 02 December 2019 at 1:45am
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Jozef Brandt
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Posted: 02 December 2019 at 3:18pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply


I wish the movie had retained the RR '88 gag for the comics, which leads you to believe it's Reagan until the final reveal.
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