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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 21 October 2019 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 1
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I died a little, inside, the first time I encountered the term “Marvel Universe”. Stan and the gang had established the stories took place here, in our reality. All we had to do was play along. But as the audience dwindled, and the lunatic fringe moved ever closer to the center, playing along became less and less an option. Marvel stories had to be set in a parallel universe. They simply couldn’t take place HERE. feh!
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2188
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| Posted: 21 October 2019 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | 2
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But as the audience dwindled, and the lunatic fringe moved ever closer to the center, playing along became less and less an option. Marvel stories had to be set in a parallel universe. They simply couldn’t take place HERE.feh!
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It's gotten much worse over the last 19 years JB. In The History Of The Marvel Universe mini series, the writer decided to alter characters origins that are tied to real world conflicts and replace those real world conflicts with a fictional war in order to get around the passage of time. This is unnecessary and takes these stories out of the "real world". I also hated that they have made characters like J Jonah Jameson (and later, the Kingpin the Mayor of New York). I also hated when they had Kang destroy Washington DC 18 years ago. For me, Marvel comics worked best when they were set in our world. These recent stories have basically done away with that.
Edited by Rick Whiting on 21 October 2019 at 9:42pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 21 October 2019 at 7:28pm | IP Logged | 3
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Fans and writers who imagine themselves to be too Sophisticated for the basic conventions of the form, and end up proving themselves too dumb. (And, full transparency, I have fallen down that rabbit hole a few times myself.)
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Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
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| Posted: 21 October 2019 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | 4
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I don't think Mark Waid, author of said HISTORY OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE series, considers himself too sophisticated for anything. He's trying to "get around" all the old Marvel stories connected to the Vietnam war by replacing "Vietnam" with a fictional "Sin-Cong" war that lasted decades.
Sin-Cong was introduced in some Marvel story many years ago, so he didn't pull it out of his hat.
It works as well as anything could, I suppose. It allows writers to use characters from Mantis to Sha Shan (Flash Thompson's ex-girlfriend) without using the outdated Vietnam War connection.
Though I agree that I don't like it when writers have someone other than the real mayor of NYC become mayor of NYC. I hated Lex Luthor becoming president in the DCU too. Even the vaguest illusion that you're reading about "the real world, but with super-people in it" goes out the window.
It would've been better to make Luthor mayor of Metropolis, since Metropolis is a fictional city.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 21 October 2019 at 9:16pm | IP Logged | 5
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It works as well as anything could, I suppose. It allows writers to use characters from Mantis to Sha Shan (Flash Thompson's ex-girlfriend) without using the outdated Vietnam War connection. ••• Simply IGNORING the “problem” not being an option? Hey, kids! Try this at home! Check my run on FANTASTIC FOUR and see how many references you can find to Reed and Ben serving in WW2!
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2188
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| Posted: 21 October 2019 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | 6
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I don't think Mark Waid, author of said HISTORY OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE series, considers himself too sophisticated for anything. He's trying to "get around" all the old Marvel stories connected to the Vietnam war by replacing "Vietnam" with a fictional "Sin-Cong" war that lasted decades.
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They could have simply ignored and not make any reference to the Vietnam War. As for those characters whose origins were tied to or had a military background and served in the Vietnam War, they could just say they served in the military and that any battles they were engaged in during the time they were in the military were fought against either unnamed or fictional terrorist groups. This isn't rocket science.
Edited by Rick Whiting on 21 October 2019 at 9:45pm
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Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
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| Posted: 21 October 2019 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | 7
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MTIO #100 contains a reference to Ben fighting in WWII, ostensibly scripted by JB, and chalks it up to the two of them time-travelling.
In this story Reed tells Ben that his visit into the "past" in MTIO #50 was actually a journey to an already-existing parallel reality and posits that the theory of divergent timelines given to us by the Watcher and Marvel Editorial may be untrue, and that any journey into the past made in a Marvel comic was instead a jaunt to similar reality...
Reed goes off to spend some time with Sue and leaves Ben alone to ponder the implications of this new take on "time travel." He decides to look in on his other self and see how life has gone for him since being cured of being the Thing back in MTIO #50.
As he's considering the multiples instances of supposed time travel he's have experienced, he lists fighting in WW II...
Edited by Brian Hague on 21 October 2019 at 10:53pm
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Nathan Greno
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 9154
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| Posted: 21 October 2019 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | 8
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I totally didn’t register that WWII reference... and I’ve read that comic 2 or 3 times.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 22 October 2019 at 1:33am | IP Logged | 9
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The reference is to a story in 2-IN-1 77, which the writer structured without mentioning the time period in which it happened, only to have the editor slap a WW2 reference on the cover!And both of those references are in MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE, not FANTASTIC FOUR.
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Leigh DJ Hunt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 February 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1570
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| Posted: 22 October 2019 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 10
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HISTORY OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE is a great book with some beautiful design work by the artist Javier Rodriguez.
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Phil Frances
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 339
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| Posted: 22 October 2019 at 2:36pm | IP Logged | 11
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HISTORY OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE is a great book with some beautiful design work by the artist Javier Rodriguez
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Agreed - one of the not-so-many things over the last few years I've felt I should take a look at from Marvel, and have thoroughly enjoyed so far.
Of course, it reminds me a lot of the History of the DC Universe by it's nature ; it does though benefit from not being confined to just two issues.
As you say, Leigh, it includes some really great design work and art from Javier Rodriguez. I think I read somewhere that there were (are?) plans for a Treasury-sized collection of the series early next year ... already on my planned 'wants' list if that's true ...
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Rob Ocelot
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 December 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1231
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| Posted: 25 October 2019 at 4:40am | IP Logged | 12
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Heh, someone has added this to the Marvel Wikia for MTIO #77:(and yeah, I know wikis should not be considered the gospel for ANYTHING)
QUOTE:
| Originally, per Fantastic Four #11, it was stated that Ben Grimm had fought during World War II. However, due to the Sliding Timescale of Earth-616 this can no longer be considered fact without significantly aging the character. As such references to Ben's military career is typically generalized. As such, there is no official explanation as to how Ben can recollect fighting in World War II alongside the Howling Commandos. One could assume that he was hallucinating, or given his proximity to the Nexus of All Realities, perhaps he was recalling the memories of another version of himself from an alternate reality. One possible reality could be Earth-98 seen in Fantastic Four Annual #1998 which is a reality where the Fantastic Four were formed in the year 1961. |
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Kind of makes you want to punch a wall, doesn't it?
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