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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3006
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| Posted: 18 October 2019 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 1
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Trump is already responsible for thousands of death, racked up while keeping his campaign promise to relax our rules of engagement. Not that they count as far as Americans can be bothered to be concerned, since they're all civilians in the Middle East.
Edited by David Miller on 18 October 2019 at 8:07pm
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7610
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| Posted: 18 October 2019 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | 2
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Trump is a demagogue, and so was Hitler in the years before he became a genocidal dictator. But comparing him to Hitler is hyperbole ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------- At one point, I may have agreed with you, but he really does seem to be on the same trajectory. As others have noted, there are concentration camps (for kids!), the Khurds are being slaughtered (Quote 'and not one drop of American blood was spilt' or 'You have to let them fight, like kids in the playground')
Yes, this is a man who can see bombs as the equivalent of letting kids in the playground have a fight. Individual lives mean absolutely nothing to this man. His statements about where he would like to see the level of his power go, his total disregard for law and due process (wanting to find out who a whistleblower is, to the point of implying they should be killed, mentioning, on numerous occasions that he would like to remove the two term limit etc) - you don't see this as being similar to the path Hitler took?
let's not wait for him to achieve his position before we call him out on where he wants to go - once he is there it's too late
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
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| Posted: 18 October 2019 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | 3
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Koroush Ghazi wrote:
| Not at all. It quite rightly points out the dangers of demagogues, and the need to always keep them in check. Make no mistake, if Trump could achieve total control of the US the way Hitler did of Germany, he would for much the same reasons, likely end up killing millions. Trump exhibits virtually all the characteristics of a 1930s fascist strongman. Genocidal dictators don't suddenly appear out of nowhere, they're enabled through our (in)actions. |
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I'm don't see how comparing Trump to Hitler is an effective way to "ensure history never repeats." People who support Trump are certainly not going to be moved by such a comparison. People who are uncertain or have mixed feelings about him are likely to see such a comparison as excessive, since as I've noted Trump is not a murderous, genocidal dictator. And if you're a thinking person who already opposes Trump, you shouldn't need a comparison to Hitler to spur you into action. Comparing Trump to Hitler may be gratifying to people who already really dislike him, but I don't see it as an effective strategy for doing anything other than escalating rhetoric and inflaming passions on both sides for no good reason.
It seems to me the focus ought to be on the things Trump actually has done and why they are objectionable, rather than hypotheticals about what you think he might do if circumstances somehow permitted it. Trump is dangerously incompetent and morally bankrupt, and exploits hatred and fear for his own personal and financial gain. Shouldn't all the terrible things he's actually done be enough basis for criticism, without needing to speculate that he could possibly turn into a genocidal dictator if we don't do something?
Also, I think your premise that he would "end up killing millions" if he had the opportunity is not one that is based on any sort of realistic evidence.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4515
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| Posted: 18 October 2019 at 10:24pm | IP Logged | 4
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"Trump is not a murderous, genocidal dictator."
Well, that ought to get you on the iggy list of the hysterical and absolutist. I think I wrote something about babies put in cages being overblown, and that was it for me I figure. :^|
How do you get a stable center back? How do we get back important regulations some marching morons happily let be tossed aside for the sake of promises of the very very best cola mining jobs down the line? How do we get people excited for a process involving compromise and decency, listening and even learning, rather than rudeness, name-calling, knowing it all, and stunts?
Impeachment of this massive puffed-up employee of Putin should be a no-brainer for Republicans with brains... what do you do if there just aren't more than a tiny number with actual brains? How do you get sanity and at least a basic self-interest (as opposed to the various revolutions being pedelled) back to the core?
Yeah, sure, seriously Hitler... that's just more extremism and hyperbole to have to work around. Phony born-into-it business genius working for Putin who couldn't win in the areas that actually knew his record, is exactly what he is and to know what that is, well, that should be enough.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1646
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| Posted: 18 October 2019 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | 5
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Forget the babies in cages. Forget concentration camps. Stop thinking about the overt murderous acts and symbols associated with Hitler.
Think big picture. Think global economic meltdown, think environmental damage. Educational degradation. Social division, racism, tribalism. The vastly increased risk of nuclear war as Trump has not only proudly re-ignited the nuclear arms race, but is driving Iran, North Korea, and likely a whole bunch of other countries, to seek to create or increase their nuclear arsenal.
Think of the immense damage he's done to the perception of America as a country that abides by international law and even the basic tenets of its own Constitution. The undermining of your healthcare system, the increase in legitimacy of "alternative facts" given the President of the United States openly listens to, and frequently cites, these sources of false information.
Honestly, if you can't see how millions, possibly billions, of lives aren't at risk of being lost due to this toxic combination, then you don't have a sufficient knowledge of history - the way one tiny act can have catastrophically far-reaching consequences.
Also, do some more reading on Hitler. He wasn't some psychopathic killer. He was basically cut from the same cloth as Trump. An ignorant, superstitious, self-serving, self-aggrandizing, material wealth-worshipping, posturing blow-hard of a moral vacuum, with an artificially inflated opinion of his own intellectual and social abilities, a denier of facts, a supposed aesthete who thought himself popular with the ladies. In short, a pathetically average person of weak character who was elevated to prominence by his appeal to the common man.
Edited by Koroush Ghazi on 18 October 2019 at 11:08pm
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
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| Posted: 18 October 2019 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | 6
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Koroush Ghazi wrote:
| Honestly, if you can't see how millions, possibly billions, of lives aren't at risk of being lost due to this toxic combination, then you don't have a sufficient knowledge of history - the way one tiny act can have catastrophically far-reaching consequences. |
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I don't disagree with any of that. But yet, destructive as Trump's actions have been, and far-reaching as their effects might be, they are not comparable to the actions of Hitler. Indirectly causing harm to millions through the greed and callousness of your actions is not comparable to deliberately rounding up and killing millions.
And again I ask... why isn't it sufficient to simply attack Trump for the things he's done? Why the need to analogize him to Hitler, and imagine that he might be capable of far worse if not checked? Let's say someone kills three people in cold blood, and shows no remorse. Do we need to compare him to Ted Bundy to express the horror of his actions? Do we need to speculate that he might have killed dozens if not caught? What purpose is served by such an analogy?
QUOTE:
| Also, do some more reading on Hitler. He wasn't some psychopathic killer. He was basically cut from the same cloth as Trump. An ignorant, superstitious, self-serving, self-aggrandizing, material wealth-worshipping, posturing blow-hard of a moral vacuum, with an artificially inflated opinion of his own intellectual and social abilities, a denier of facts, a supposed aesthete who thought himself popular with the ladies. In short, a pathetically average person of weak character who was elevated to prominence by his appeal to the common man. |
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Your argument is not well served by a patronizing attitude toward someone with whom you are debating.... I am quite aware of the facts of Hitler's life. If you believe that some similarities in personality such as those you describe above somehow constitute evidence that Trump has the potential to commit the exact same atrocities as Hitler, then you are engaging in some profoundly illogical thinking.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 18 October 2019 at 11:49pm
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35727
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| Posted: 19 October 2019 at 12:27am | IP Logged | 7
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The "Hitler" thing is an albatross. Let it go. There is enough there in his actual actions that invoking Hitler only serves to divide In other words, you're winning no points with anyone, particularly with independents, comparing Trump to Hitler. You are far better off using real world events as a basis against him than falling back on a tired trope (however true) that Trump=Hitler.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1646
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| Posted: 19 October 2019 at 7:12am | IP Logged | 8
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For the record, I don't frequently refer to Trump as Hitler. But trying to describe the long-term damage Trump is doing is kind of hard if we just focus on the relatively minor stuff the media picks up.
I did mention "real world events" - unless you think the very real nuclear escalation and global economic meltdown are not serious threats.
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3006
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| Posted: 19 October 2019 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | 9
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This stuff about Trump not being Hitler reminds me of the joke where a man offers a woman $5 for sex. We know what he is; the rest is haggling.
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4721
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| Posted: 22 October 2019 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 10
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Lynching is trending today based on Trump's tweet - so here are some facts I looked up:
From 1882-1968, 4,743 lynchings occurred in the U.S., according to the NAACP. Of these people that were lynched, 3,446 were black. (These are only reported numbers.)
Pretty damn low for him to use such a word in regards to his impeachment probe.
Also facts: Trump desperately wants to change the subject away from the G7, Syria and Ukraine. He continues trying to control the narrative. Distraction from William Taylor’s testimony today. LINK
-C!
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Greg McPhee
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5065
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| Posted: 23 October 2019 at 4:40am | IP Logged | 11
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Lindsey Graham has clearly been threatened with something incriminating again to bring him back in to line as he is agreeing that this process is a "lynching".
William Taylor's testimony is damning, and its only the tip of the iceberg.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12436
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| Posted: 23 October 2019 at 8:31am | IP Logged | 12
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It's interesting to see the Wall Street Journal's Op-Ed page often turn against Trump over the past month. Not always, but a lot. Two hits today. But then a good chunk of the information underlying the impeachment inquiry was driven by WSJ reporting. Glimmer of hope that traditional conservatives out there are coming out more and more with a Dump-Trump call...?
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