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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 17 September 2019 at 9:25am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Michael, while I can't agree with everything you said, I must congratulate you on presenting it well.

Peter, a third of the angels rebelled and fell, so, yes, there is free will in Heaven.  We are not automatons.  It will be interesting to see how free will humans live in a Heaven and Earth made new.  Perhaps that's what the whole redemption process was in preparation for.

Marc, now you're getting into predestination and "God's perfect will" vs. His "passive will"--doctrines that have been debated for 2,000 years.  Let's just say that I believe that God has a way of giving us "the benefit of the doubt."  Like a parent giving a child a curfew--on one hand, the parent knows that particular child will break it; on the other hand, the parent gives the child the benefit of the doubt and chooses to trust the child.

Koroush, you're asking things I've already answered upthread, and you're also putting words in my mouth that I never said.


Edited by Eric Jansen on 17 September 2019 at 9:27am
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 17 September 2019 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Jesus wept.
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 17 September 2019 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 3 post reply


 QUOTE:
Or, alternatively, as Michael so kindly puts it, you've "transcended" logic and reality, and live in a fantasy world.

Yes. It has to be that way, doesn't it? As Mark Twain put it: “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.” I did mean to be kindly too, in the sense that religious people are genuinely -- sincerely, not hypocritically -- moved, uplifted, by their beliefs. Their Light can shine brightly, fiercely even. Which, of course, means that their Dark side can... 

Anyway, it's fascinating, how certain religious people, perhaps even the majority[?], can be relatively free from a gross mythology as a conscious quotidian concern, whereas a believer like Eric Jansen -- or at least as shown in his posts, because I don't suggest I know anything truly about him -- continually resorts to another absolutely indemonstrable reality (the fantasy land you labelled, Koroush) in order to understand and explain the reality we all commonly experience.

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 17 September 2019 at 11:26am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

So, Eric, what we do on Earth isn't all that important because you can get relegated from Heaven anyway? Can you get promoted from Hell for good behaviour?
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 17 September 2019 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

 Michael Penn wrote:
Yes. It has to be that way, doesn't it?


Does it though, Michael? Do we need people to rely on fictional crutches to survive on this planet, and as you say, doesn't that make them just as easy to sway into doing terrible things? I'm sure you know my favourite quote on this from Steven Weinberg:


 QUOTE:
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
(emphasis added)

I'd be more than happy to let people like Eric have their comfortable imaginings, if it wasn't for the fact that these same people then, en masse, start forcing the world around them to conform to their delusions, e.g., demanding an end to abortions, denying contraceptive options in overpopulated countries like Brazil and Africa, denying euthanasia to those who are suffering, and supporting all manner of other heinous planet-altering policies - in the name of their beautiful, loving creation "God", and his creation-gone-awry, this testing ground where we must suffer due to the sins of our ancestors, and earn our place in a fictional heaven.

As for the second part of your post, if I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that people like Eric basically have their own reality. I didn't think this was all that rare. There are two options facing a "believer": see the world as it is, and adjust their spiritual views accordingly; and see their spiritual views as being real, and adjust the world accordingly. In my observations, Americans in particular seem to fall more commonly into the second camp; here in Australia for example, people are more pragmatic, so they fall into the first camp.

I'm not sure which is worse, because while the second group are more clearly delusional, the first group are harder to argue against. They will, for example, happily admit that most of the Bible is nonsense, but will still say they believe in God, and then pick and choose the things they believe in. So you get the situation, as we have here, where otherwise seemingly rational people will argue that gay marriage is "wrong" on ostensibly religious grounds, yet they will agree that Bible verses calling gay people abominations are also wrong.
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Robbie Moubert
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Posted: 17 September 2019 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

All the death you speak of was not the original plan and only came about, according to Genesis, by Adam's free will disobedience ("By one man, death came into the world...") in an act that he was warned against.

***********************************
But Adam had no knowledge of good and evil before he ate the apple so how could he know that he was doing something wrong?!
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 17 September 2019 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Koroush, the necessity ("has to be") that I was referring to -- agreeing with you, actually -- is that religious faith is by definition, i.e., necessarily, beyond proof. Eric Jansen has denied that, positing that he has proof of his faith, but he's patently incorrect, of course -- and I don't mean (just) metaphysically but simply as a matter of the meaning of words. See, e.g., Oxford Dic.: Faith. Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof

The second part of my post was referring to -- not picking on Eric Jansen, but he's offered up his own posts, so... -- Mr. Jansen's reliance on Christian mythology (e.g., "a third of the angels rebelled and fell") to understand, explain, and even dispute as a thing that I find fascinating, in part because I do not in my personal life truck at all with Evangelicals. The many Christians I know are a few degrees more substantive than nominal and (hence?) their religious beliefs are relatively private and benign and would, even at their most respectful of ancient Christian traditions, consider the real relevance of heavenly realms, oh, roughly nil. But that seems far from the case for Evangelicals. Fascinating, and frightening, because the level a believer is willing to mythologize reality is directly proportional with the risk his beliefs carry to harm others who don't share the same mythology.
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 17 September 2019 at 10:32pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

 Robbie Moubert wrote:
But Adam had no knowledge of good and evil before he ate the apple so how could he know that he was doing something wrong?!


Adam should have listened to God, full stop. The point of the Bible is to reinforce time and time again that we must do what God says, we must worship him, believe in him, do his bidding, for He is the Lord.

Michael, I suspect you rub shoulders with more sophisticated Christians, and what you term Evangelicals, or I suppose more broadly, Fundamentalists, are more common than either of us think. Many Biblical scholars also assert that the Bible should be taken literally. In fact, I can't understand how someone could believe in God, and yet reject the bulk of the Bible... the inevitable question is, where did they get that belief from, the notion of a God in Heaven, of prayer, faith, etc.?

But then again, I think you're going well beyond my limited mental means in terms of understanding precisely what you're saying :)
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 18 September 2019 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

"Delusional," "fantasy world," "evil"...

Well, Mark Baptiste, I guess we see now why there weren't more Bible-believing Christians who wanted to answer your original post question!  : )

To those who seem horrified or shocked that a Christian (who's for years read a Bible that taught western civilization to "Love your enemies" and to care for widows and orphans) should actually believe in a good God with a good plan for those He calls children, I say--

Perhaps it was my mistake to answer some questions with accepted (though abbreviated) Bible theology and other questions with my own fill-in-the-gap theories (even though I thought I gave plenty of disclaimers).  Perhaps this topic was too deep for such speculation and shorthand.  And I guess when I spoke of "God," I should have realized that while I was thinking of a supremely intelligent and advanced being (though "advanced" is certainly the wrong word, it does bring to mind a more correct visual), others would fall back to their "old white guy in the sky" caricature.  (When God let Moses glimpse Him, He shielded his eyes and only let him see the afterglow of His light.  A far cry from Zeus turning into a bull or whatever.)  Shorthand can sound silly when those talking have different mental images of the terms being shorthand-ed.

For instance, I don't know if you exactly subscribe to the theory Mr. Byrne presented earlier of the universe creating itself because of, you know, math.  To me, that sounds ridiculous, but I'm sure the longer, more detailed explanation is more compelling.

A lot of this discussion, at its core, comes down to some thinking the universe came into existence by chance and chaos, while others (me, at least) think it came into existence on purpose by an intelligent designer.  Some might see those as equally possible and reasonable, even though there's no "put it on the table in front of me" evidence to prove or disprove either.  I wonder--would they even look any different?  If advanced aliens time-traveled back to the beginning of the universe, they would probably see the same thing no matter which cause was accurate.

Science should be based on all available evidence, wouldn't you agree?  As a modern American who went to high school and college and reads and has the Internet, etc., I have been exposed to a lot of the evidence for a godless, chaotic universe springing spontaneously into existence.  The difference being that I am also open to other evidence that leads me to believe in God the Creator and Jesus the Savior.  That evidence is:

Personal--Certainly, this is evidence only to me; I cannot drop it in a box in front of you.  But I have seen the supernatural, I have experienced healings, I have had prayers answered that were ridiculously specific and could only be truly from God or the wildest of coincidences.
Testimony--I have heard amazing testimonies of others, of their healings, and their miracles, of the dead raised and even limbs regrown on the mission field--in the name of Jesus.  (And not from those given to hyperbole.)  Sure, testimony is considered the least accurate evidence in a trial...unless you have a million (or a billion) people agreeing on the same thing.  Then, it should at least be considered.
Historical--That so many cultures with a written language (and others through verbal tradition) have an account of a worldwide flood that killed all except for one man (and in some accounts his family) is very compelling.  (Even if you never believe in God, it seems clear that SOMETHING big happened.)  Some Bible stories being seemingly preserved in the Chinese written language would be another fun fact.
Math--That Jesus is foretold throughout the Old Testament (written down over 2,000 years by almost 40 different writers) through over 300 different prophecies to be the Messiah defies the odds so much that for even 6 or 7 of them being fulfilled in one man--there aren't enough numbers on your calculator.  It would have to either be true or a deliberate fabrication by the priestly class of the time, which is unlikely since they rejected Jesus.  (And it would read like a hodgepodge, which it does not.)

The discussion has been reduced to "Science vs. Faith," but, as I said before, my faith is based on someone I know, the God who introduced Himself into my daily life for 37 years now.  I'm looking at all the evidence.  If you're only looking at half the evidence, perhaps you're not being scientific enough.


Edited by Eric Jansen on 18 September 2019 at 9:51am
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 18 September 2019 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

It would have to either be true or a deliberate fabrication by the priestly class of the time, which is unlikely since they rejected Jesus.  (And it would read like a hodgepodge, which it does not.)
----------------------------
There's so many suitable explanations to answer this that are more likely than 'it's supernatural!'

The most obvious one being that if Jesus is fictional, then it becomes very easy for the tales being told about him to jibe with whatever the authors decide.

It only becomes more difficult if you assume Jesus lived and the Gospels were written down as things really happened there and then (which even Christians agree didn't happen; the Gospels are written from memory by true-believers decades after the purported fact). And even then, if Jesus was a charlatan how difficult was it for him to tailor things to match what was in the Old Testament? The Old Testament prophecies that a king will enter Jerusalem mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey (make your mind up).

The Gospel makes it clear that Jesus was a scholar of scripture. Presumably he knew the prophecies. Does it then prove anything that someone, who wanted to present himself as fulfilling the prohecies of the Old Testament, took steps to match up with those prophecies? This seems like a truism. Unless the miracle is for a grown man to ride on a donkey foal, which is quite the trick.


Edited by Peter Martin on 18 September 2019 at 10:27am
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 18 September 2019 at 4:23pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 Eric Jansen wrote:
The discussion has been reduced to "Science vs. Faith," but, as I said before, my faith is based on someone I know, the God who introduced Himself into my daily life for 37 years now. I'm looking at all the evidence. If you're only looking at half the evidence, perhaps you're not being scientific enough.


Some final points from me before I check out of this thread, because clearly, we're heading for a confrontation. So let me put this as politely as possible.

The discussion has not been "reduced" to 'Science vs. Faith', it has been raised to the level of 'Fact vs. Fiction' - which is hopefully what most discussions should do, at least with regards to something that has such a huge impact on the lives of billions of people on this planet.

I'm sure you're a lovely person and you have the best intentions at heart, but your hurt feelings of persecution are not going to guilt me out of stating the facts.

The facts are this: your passionate assertions and prophecies aside, neither you, nor anybody else, has provided independently verifiable evidence of the existence of God. That's the standard for scientific evidence. If I claim to have an alien living in my closet, that he and I are very close, and that "several of my buddies have seen him", so he must be real, I wouldn't expect you or anyone else to believe me until I provided tangible evidence that can be independently verified. Indeed, were I to wander around repeatedly making this claim without any conclusive proof, I would quite rightly be ridiculed, and eventually, institutionalised.

For some reason, religion is above this standard of rationality. My theory is that it's because religion is a tool of control, and an opiate of the masses, in terms of giving people something to help them cope with harsh reality. It is a vastly profitable business that rewards both those in control with wealth and power, and those who are being controlled, with a very pleasant fiction.

Regardless, I reject that concept. If you spread nonsense, I will call it nonsense, your hurt feelings notwithstanding. You may label me an "Atheist", that's fine, but the correct term for someone like me is a rational person. I'm simply asking for proof of something before accepting it, the burden falls on you, not me.

That's how science works. Somebody comes up with an assertion, and it must be tested and proven empirically to be correct before it is accepted as fact, otherwise it is rejected. And people who frequently make claims that cannot be verified, must be considered to be delusional. Again, I'm sorry if this upsets you and others like you, but it's a brave new world, and we shouldn't have any place for any false claims, especially something as dangerously harmful as a delusion that has resulted in so much pain and suffering, and still does to this day.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 18 September 2019 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply


 QUOTE:
That so many cultures with a written language (and others through verbal tradition) have an account of a worldwide flood that killed all except for one man (and in some accounts his family) is very compelling.  (Even if you never believe in God, it seems clear that SOMETHING big happened.)

Well, yes. There was an Ice Age. The ice melted. Bodies of water that were dammed by glacial ice flowed into areas that were populated. Various cultures wrote about these localized floods, extrapolating them into worldwide floods.

Question: How would these various cultures determine a flood is worldwide without a means of global communication, satellites, or flight?
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