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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132347
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Posted: 14 September 2019 at 12:52am | IP Logged | 1
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Where the heck did everything come from?••• Literally from nothing. It’s a concept that’s difficult to express with words. That’s why scientists use mathematics. Over simplified, tho, there was nothing to prevent the Universe from happening, so it did.
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Koroush Ghazi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 1653
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Posted: 14 September 2019 at 2:44am | IP Logged | 2
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Tell me where God come from; everything else came from the same place.
As for God's love, sometimes, when I feel alone and vulnerable, it warms my heart to think of the love He has shown us in the Bible. Take for example the touching message He gives us in Genesis 6:13:
QUOTE:
God said to Noah, 'I have decided that the end has come for all living things, for the earth is full of lawlessness because of human beings. So I am now about to destroy them and the earth. |
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So because God gets angry at certain humans being lawless, in his vast love-filled heart, he decides the best solution is to flood the entire planet, painfully killing millions of innocent people and animals along with the guilty.
What's that you say? The story of Noah is not meant to be taken literally, it's allegorical? OK. What's the allegory, the moral? That if you defy God, he'll utterly and indiscriminately destroy everything? What else could it possibly be, a message of love?
There was a time when people who didn't believe in unproven absurd contradictory nonsense weren't given a special name like "Atheist", they were simply called sensible or rational. And those who believe in superstitious baloney weren't called "faithful" or "believers", they were dismissed as nutjobs, or labelled gullible or foolish. And yet, here we are, debating silly Middle Eastern fairy tales as though this nonsense actually happened!
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2294
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Posted: 14 September 2019 at 3:55am | IP Logged | 3
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Was talking to my friend. She said that the Chinese characters on that chart are relatively modern and did not exist thousands of years ago, the supposed time of the "flood". Not sure how a message from God could be hidden in symbols from the time of Babel that have changed dramatically over thousands of years. She sent me pictures of the ancient characters and they look nothing like the modern ones in the chart. Only explanation is that the creators of the modern charactes were somehow influenced by God to hide these clues inside of them. Only explanation. __________
Um...not exactly. The Communist government of China may have simplified lines (and dropped some pieces) in 1949, but the basic characters have been in use for over 2,000 years. (And in numerous Asian countries, not just China.) Not the time of the Flood or Babel, but not exactly "modern" either. And the standard Chinese still evolved out of the older characters and their meanings. I couldn't find the exact words referenced earlier, but here's a nice chart showing the evolution of generic words and you can see some of the same shapes/components in words millennia old.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 30906
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Posted: 14 September 2019 at 7:34am | IP Logged | 4
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Eric telling Neil his Chinese friend is wrong about Chinese letters. Nice.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132347
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Posted: 14 September 2019 at 8:39am | IP Logged | 5
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Addendum to that "something from nothing" post. As someone pointed out, years ago, the scenario is extremely unlikely, but as far as we are concerned, it only needs to have happened ONCE.
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Koroush Ghazi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 1653
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Posted: 14 September 2019 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 6
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Wouldn't it be great if God stopped playing games with us by hiding proof of his existence in ambiguous ancient Chinese characters?
Is this some sort of cosmic game of hide-and-seek that a bored deity plays when he has too much time on his hands?
Why is believing in something without evidence ("faith") such an important part of the supposed test that God puts us through? Isn't that completely the opposite of what our brains are designed to do in every other respect?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132347
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Posted: 14 September 2019 at 11:18am | IP Logged | 7
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“Here is the Book that tells you how the Universe works, and here are your minds and senses which will discover that the Universe contradicts everything in the Book. “But you still have to fully believe the Book, or burn in Hell for all eternity.”
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Marc Baptiste Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3655
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Posted: 14 September 2019 at 5:54pm | IP Logged | 8
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Eric,
Sorry for being a little late to the party that is my own thread. Thank you very much for coming in and joining us.
I must disagree with the bulk of your first (and subsequent) posts. Also, we must have learned about a COMPLETELY different God and Bible. As I understand the orthodox Christian view of the Bible - that it is THE literal, inerrant, UNCHANGING word of God, from the first letter of Genesis to the last period of the New Testament.
I could not profess more awe at your example that it is Paul and NOT God commanding that women be silent in church. Are you saying the only parts of the Bible we should take as literal, inerrant and unchanging are the actual words spoken by Jesus during his time on Earth? I thought God spoke THROUGH the authors of the Bible - and that every word of the Bible are HIS words, NOT the words of sinful, error-prone humans.
Also, in explaining "Paul's command" that women be silent in church and defer to their husbands with all questions, you didn't really address my main point, you just restated the reasons (e.g., context, to quell disruptions, etc.) that I gave as excuses people employ to explain away Biblical passages that don't pass muster with modern sensibilities.
It seems to me a person either buys it lock, stock, and barrel, or they are just another cafeteria Christian.
Marc
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Neil Lindholm Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: China Posts: 4940
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Posted: 14 September 2019 at 7:51pm | IP Logged | 9
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A few years back, I went to an old palace in China with some Chinese friends. Dating back from the 17th century, it was still in fantastic condition. I asked them to translate what was carved into the rocks and on the old scrolls and they had great difficulty doing so. I asked them why, given that one of the reasons people in China give for still using a pictograph language is to be able to connect to the past, and they said that the writing had changed so much, they were unable to read it. This was writing from only 300-400 years ago. If one line on a Chinese character is off by a small amount, it can be very difficult to read. Even though the ancient characters have morphed into the modern ones, it doesn't mean they are readable by anyone but scholars.
I have also asked about the shapes and figures in writing and it is true that the earliest words were formed this way but nobody alive now (again, other than scholars) know the origins of more than a few of the modern characters. They don't think of them like that.
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2294
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Posted: 15 September 2019 at 12:08am | IP Logged | 10
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Wouldn't it be great if God stopped playing games with us by hiding proof of his existence in ambiguous ancient Chinese characters?
____________
Koroush, I see evidence of God everywhere--in nature, in history, in language, in my daily life. I can't get through a day without God proving Himself to me. To me, evidence of His existence and love is everywhere--there's so much of it, it just spills over into things like the Chinese written language. I presented that as just a fun "Hey! Look at that! Isn't that cool?" example.
God spoke to the Israelites at Mt. Sinai, and the power of it horrified them. So, He switched to speaking through the prophets, and the people killed them. He then came in human form ("He" being the Son/Word part of the Trinity), born humbly as Jesus ("The Image of the Invisible God"), speaking words of love and performing acts of healing--and they were still horrified and killed Him.
The seeing-Him-clearly time you wish for is promised for the future in Revelation 21:3-4-- And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
Why is that just for then and not for now? Who can say for sure? I see this world/this time as a middle ground--it's not Heaven and it's not Hell, though we experience a little bit of both. Good things can happen to bad people here and bad things can happen to good people. Seems unfair to the good people, but it is certainly a time of mercy for bad people--a time when they can turn. (And, really, we're all bad people, in different degrees.) Now, there can be bravery and self-sacrifice--not so in a perfect world. Now is a time for Faith, which is a beautiful thing. Then will be a time of Knowing, and that will be beautiful too.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 15 September 2019 at 12:32am
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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2294
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Posted: 15 September 2019 at 12:29am | IP Logged | 11
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As I understand the orthodox Christian view of the Bible - that it is THE literal, inerrant, UNCHANGING word of God, from the first letter of Genesis to the last period of the New Testament._______________
Marc, don't get me wrong--that IS what I believe. But it takes nothing away from the inerrancy of the Bible to look at the context. I take the Bible so literally that I look at every word. It DOES depend on who is speaking and who is being spoken to. For instance, Jesus told the rich, young ruler to leave everything behind and follow Him; but to the man of the tombs whom he healed (exorcised), He told him to go home. "Leave your life" to the one who had everything, but "Go back to your life" to the one who had nothing. An obvious, if extreme, example is that promises are given to the Devil that I don't want.
To the Israelites, God said "Do not commit adultery." To His followers, Jesus said "If you lust in your heart, you've already committed adultery." Those are not contradictory, it's just that God revealed more later, to a people more ready to hear it. Likewise, to "the descendants of Jacob," God said to tithe 10%; to the Christian believer, He says to give all (but with more freedom in how to do it)--or at least "the man with two cloaks should give one to the man with none." To the Jew, He gave the Sabbath; to the Christian, every day was to be kept holy ("The believers met in each others' houses every day"). To Adam, He gave only one prohibition; to the Jews, He gave Ten Commandments (and about 300 related laws); to the Christ-follower, even thoughts can be sins, but we are forgiven without the periodic animal sacrifice, because we are "In Christ" who paid all penalty on the Cross. There is a progression there (as mankind and believers matured) but not contradictions.
God is unchanging and the Word of God is unchanging. But God chose to give us His Word over a 2,000-year period.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 15 September 2019 at 12:36am
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Paul Kimball Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2168
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Posted: 15 September 2019 at 1:19am | IP Logged | 12
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God is unchanging and the Word of God is unchanging. But God chose to give us His Word over a 2,000-year perio ________ And God gave it to us in strange way, although she could've shared the information with every living human, she did it in a way where no one in North/South America could possibly hear about if for over a thousnd years and the information is shared in such a way that it seems no more than likely than other religions
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