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Michael Penn
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| Posted: 12 September 2019 at 1:20pm | IP Logged | 1
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Any time a religious person interprets (or misinterprets) his holy book on the side of peace, love, and understanding...
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Eric Sofer
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| Posted: 12 September 2019 at 3:13pm | IP Logged | 2
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Certainly a lot of Muslim and Jewish dietary laws were plain and simple ways to eat and stay alive. Back in the day, when there was trichnosis, pork went deadly faster than you can say hot dogs. Milk and meat together triggered food poisoning. And one had separate sets of plates simply so that one could while actually eating on the other set of plates.
I can speak for Reformed Judaism in that we don't still observe these because we feel the Torah is a living document, and changes as the world changes... unbelievably progressive among other "modern" religions. But even Orthodox and Conservative Jews follow the old Kosher laws as well.
But at least these laws were dictated by common sense and health - not because someone claimed that an old man with a beard and in a great white robe said so.
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Koroush Ghazi
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| Posted: 12 September 2019 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 3
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Eric Sofer wrote:
| the Torah is a living document, and changes as the world changes... unbelievably progressive among other "modern" religions |
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Sorry Eric, religion and "progressive" simply don't go together. The concept that a perfect being who is all-knowing gave you detailed instructions, but that these instructions "evolve" based on your interpretation of what applies to the modern world, is contradictory.
Either God exists and gave you instructions for reasons he is best equipped to know, and which should apply until HE revokes them, or it's all a bunch of stuff made up by humans for a particular time and place, in which case, why follow any of it in the first place; why not simply listen to what modern science has to say and ignore the holy books entirely?
If there is one religion that is applicable today, it's Atheism. Athios, the God of Atheism, is remarkably communicative to his followers, you can even text or call him if you have any questions about observing the rites of Atheism.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
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| Posted: 13 September 2019 at 4:17am | IP Logged | 4
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I truly appreciate all the responses so far! I am still hoping to hear from some Bible-believing forum members.
I am especially interested in their thoughts on why, even among those who believe the Bible is the literal word of God, there are a select few passages that get the "context" "time and place" "God really meant this" treatment and others are black and white, clear as glass, NOT to be questioned. ________________________
Hi, Marc Baptiste.
I am a Bible-believing Christian. I take it literally except for those parts that are clearly poetic, symbolic, or prophetic language (though truth is still being communicated in those passages). God does not change, but how He deals with mankind does change. I take it so literally that "context" and "time and place" are not excuses but guides. If God tells Moses "Tell the Israelites..." (which He does in much of Leviticus) to wear their hair in a certain way, or their clothes, or perform certain eating or cleansing practices, etc., I pay attention, but I realize that I am not the exact intended audience for those directions. But there are plenty of universal statements in the Old or New Testaments that are revealing universal truths regardless of time or place. (Murder and adultery are always wrong, for example.)
Where the New Testament talks about women, it is Paul who says "I do allow women to speak in church." That is not a universal command from God that women should never speak in church. It is a directive from Paul in that time and those places that women should not speak, though elsewhere women are called to be prophets, a position considered higher than a teacher or preacher. (In fact, in the church Paul was addressing, women were known to interrupt the message being given, so Paul's directive might be better understood in context "Women should not speak OUT in church" and neither should men or kids.)
To those bothered by the passages about treating slaves well, would you rather those passages WEREN'T there? (And, of course, in the context of time and place, free men might sell themselves as "bondservants" or slaves for seven years or life. Paul himself considered himself a bondservant of the Lord.)
And it's not just a dividing line between the Old and New Testaments. A "Testament" was also a "Covenant" and the Old Testament talks about numerous covenants between God and man through the millennia. His covenant with Adam was "Don't eat that one fruit." (Adam broke that covenant.) There was a Noahic covenant, an Abrahamic covenant, a Mosaic covenant, a priestly covenant, a Davidic covenant, and now the Christian covenant, with changes to that in the future scenarios touched on in the book of Revelation. God does not change but how He deals with a changing mankind in a changing world does.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 13 September 2019 at 5:19am | IP Logged | 5
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All these “covenants” as God has to keep constantly tweaking his imperfect Creation. But why is it imperfect? Or, more to to point, how can it be imperfect? A perfect being knowingly creates imperfection? Deliberately sets us up to fail? Aren’t we supposed to be made in God’s image? Did God just choose to leave out some of the good parts? The God of the OT is cruel and vengeful, like a boy torturing an ant colony with a magnifying glass. The God of the NT is weak and ineffectual, failing to deliver the Message upon which our eternal salvation depends. And Hell waits for all of us who get it wrong. Nice.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 13 September 2019 at 5:55am | IP Logged | 6
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OR (as I forgot to put it in the above answer to Marc)...
God calls us his children. Mankind in general is His child--all coming originally from Adam his son or, when redeemed, as part of the body of Christ, His Son.
A parent deals with his child in different ways, depending on what the child is mature enough to understand. You talk to a 2 year-old differently than you talk to a 10 year-old, or a teenager, or an adult.
Looking through the generations, one can consider Adam as the 2 year-old. You tell a 2 year-old "No! Don't touch!" whether it's the fruit of that one tree or a pot of boiling water on the stove--no explanation necessary except maybe "You could die if you do that!" or "You could go to Hell!"--warnings, not threats. The Israelites in the desert might be the teenager stage--you set down the rules. You don't explain everything to a teenager, they just need to follow the rules or they might get grounded. Say the present generation is the young adult (I don't want to give us credit of too much maturity). God can explain the whys and wherefores behind the rules of youth. "Let us reason together." At the adult stage, we don't need our parent running alongside us every step of the way as we wobble down the street on our new bike. Believers have the Bible and the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us through our daily lives.
Same God, same truths. Different ways of communicating those truths. We're the ones who change.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 13 September 2019 at 6:02am | IP Logged | 7
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Same God, same truths. Different ways of communicating those truths. We're the ones who change.•• But why do we "change"? Why did God create us as something less than was intended as our "finished" form? Why trickle down the instructions--instuctions which, again, are vital to our Salvation? Oh, right, God's Plan. And we're not supposed to understand it. "Things Man was not meant to know." ++++++++++ Believers have the Bible and the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us through our daily lives. •• And the rest of us--meaning the vast majority of people on Earth--are just screwed. (And everybody born before Jesus is in Hell.) Nice.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 13 September 2019 at 6:25am | IP Logged | 8
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Why does a baby change?
God gave believers and non-believers alike a conscience. Some people just choose to ignore their conscience.
Jesus went to Hell to "free the captives" held there--that was part of His redeeming mission.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 13 September 2019 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 9
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I often wonder why so many atheists seem to hate God, or are at least supremely disappointed in Him. I totally understand not believing in someone you can't see, but I don't get the hate. Oh sure, some people have done evil in His name, but I sort of expect evil to pretend to be good.
If you think God is a fiction, then you have to take into account the whole "story." You can't just say "Oh, He killed the Egyptian firstborn--that proves He's evil." You have to look at the rest of the "character's" storyline. He created EVERYONE--we all owe Him everything! Everything we know about sin comes from what He's warned us about. Everything we know about love and kindness comes from Him. Even your sense of outrage at His perceived cruelty comes from Him!
I think people who don't believe in God or hate Him do so because of misconceptions. He is a God of love, yes, but He is also a God of perfect justice. A child sees all punishment as "mean!" but a mature adult understands that justice sometimes calls for it. But He is also a god of mercy, and so He sent his Son--one third of his triune being to fulfill His love, justice, and mercy.
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 13 September 2019 at 6:49am | IP Logged | 10
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God gave believers and non-believers alike a conscience. Some people just choose to ignore their conscience.•• The humility of "believers" never fails to astound me. ++++++++++++ Jesus went to Hell to "free the captives" held there--that was part of His redeeming mission. •• And since then?
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 13 September 2019 at 6:52am | IP Logged | 11
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QUOTE:
| But He is also a god of mercy, and so He sent his Son--one third of his triune being to fulfill His love, justice, and mercy. |
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A "gift" that has not and does not make a lick of sense to billions and billions and billions of people, generation after generation for the past two thousand years -- and yet without excepting that "gift"... ETERNAL DAMNATION.
Oh, mercy!
[Which Jesus-group knows what it means to truly accept the "gift"? All of them? Most? Some? A few? Just one? And... who says?]
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John Byrne
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| Posted: 13 September 2019 at 6:58am | IP Logged | 12
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I often wonder why so many atheists seem to hate God, or are at least supremely disappointed in Him. I totally understand not believing in someone you can't see, but I don't get the hate.•• This fictional God of yours is one of the most hateful characters in literature--tho very few atheists devote much energy to "hating" him. That would be like hating leprechauns or the Tooth Fairy. But that's the go-to word these days, isn't it? Someone who disagrees is a "hater", and, as we know. "haters gotta hate". Eliminates the need for reasonable discussion. +++++++ If you think God is a fiction, then you have to take into account the whole "story." You can't just say "Oh, He killed the Egyptian firstborn--that proves He's evil." •• If only this loving God didn't have such a fondness for killing children. The story of Noah. Sodom and Gomorrah. All those towns and villages put to the sword. The Egyptian firstborn. Even the children he simply allowed to be slaughtered when Jesus was born. If this is love, I don't want to see hate!
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