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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
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| Posted: 12 August 2019 at 7:48am | IP Logged | 1
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Beautiful and clear composition…•• But apparently not clear enough for Chris!!
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12429
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| Posted: 12 August 2019 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 2
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JB, how would you have scripted that?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
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| Posted: 12 August 2019 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 3
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Leave out Piotr’s lines entirely, until Angel arrives. Let the art speak for itself. Tho Chris was never very good at that.
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Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4226
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| Posted: 12 August 2019 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 4
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For me i don't mind to have text describing what is shown in the art, it gives a rythm to the story, and i also see it as a traditional part of the medium (but of course not the exclusive way to do it "right").What i don't like here is that it is obviously wrong and ridiculous. A silent image and the text (or sound for those who may want a movie analogy, which in the present case and the effect produced on the reader/spectator, seems good enough)... a silent sequence of images where we see Colossus doing his work, and the sudden irruption of the text when Angel appears, is also a great way of doing it. But not necessarily superior for me, simply different, and the procuct of a different artistic voice/sensibility. In 99% of the cases you and Chris worked wonderfully together (i am speaking of the result) here may be the 1% of the cases where we got an absurdity.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 12 August 2019 at 10:16am
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Juan Gomez
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2019
Posts: 25
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| Posted: 12 August 2019 at 2:25pm | IP Logged | 5
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I admit that I've never been a huge fan of engaging in strength level discussions, either way, because comics are rarely consistent about it...but even so, the artwork itself surely doesn't leave any room for arguing in this case.
I understand that the creative process behind a comic book is often going to resemble a back and forth between at least two or more parties, yet Chris Claremont did make a mistake here.
Perhaps you could have Colossus say such a throwaway line about putting in some real effort...if he wasn't already transformed.
Edited by Juan Gomez on 12 August 2019 at 2:25pm
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Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017
Posts: 1717
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| Posted: 13 August 2019 at 3:53pm | IP Logged | 6
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Leave out Piotr’s lines entirely, until Angel arrives. Let the art speak for itself.
*** Yep.
I'm also offended (still, after all these years!) by Angel wearing yellow boots and gloves. What an eyesore. I'll say it again: Neal Adams' costume for Warren was perfect. So of course the powers that were at Marvel had to f*ck it up.
And to state the obvious, JB had no say in this, of course. The employee follows the boss's rules even if he hates them...
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2188
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| Posted: 25 August 2019 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 7
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I have several science questions regarding super strength in the real world.
1. In the real world what would be considered "superhuman strength"?
2. How much weight would a person have to be able to lift to be considered to have super strength?
3. How much weight would a person have to be able to lift in order to bend prison bars or tear a car door off of a car?
4. Would the strength levels of chimps.gorillas,bears,and elephants be classified as "super strength"?
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 25 August 2019 at 8:43pm | IP Logged | 8
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Mind you, these are only my own opinions.
1. Guiness says that the heaviest weight ever lifted by a human is 6270 pounds. So I'll say 6271 pounds.2. See #1. 3. I don't know the flexibility and tensile strength of a car door hinges or prison cell bars. But the math should be pretty easy once these facts are estabished. 4. By my scale above, if "super strength" applies to a standard 200 pound human, then the level where one hits it is 31.35 times his body weight. Apply as desired... but I'll bet the smaller creature, the easier to heft that weight. So your mileage may vary.
Also bear in mind that supposedly, a sudden rush of adrenaline has been reputed to increase one's strength. Circumstances may apply to these estimates.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15777
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| Posted: 26 August 2019 at 7:05am | IP Logged | 9
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It depends what type of lift you're talking about. Normally, when we talk about superhuman feats of strength, I tend to think in terms of hoisting with the arms rather than pressing with the legs or dead lifts with the arms hanging down.
In terms of feats of strength lifting with the arms, I think Eric's values are a long, long way into super-human territory. That's nearly 3 tonnes.
The Olympic record for heavyweight clean and jerk is 263 kg (580lbs).
That would be my guide to closeness to super-human levels.
OHOTMU maintained that 800lbs was the upper limit of human perfection, which is what Captain America could lift (press). Obviously there is a difference between having your back supported and doing a press than the clean and jerk. Back when that was written the world record for bench press was 320kg (710 lbs).
Humans have gone further in the intervening years though! The current record is 500kg (over 1000lbs), but with the significant assist of a 'bench-shirt', which is a stiff, supportive shirt which lends a big boost to performance.
Without bench-shirts, but with the use of supportive belts and arm/wrist wraps, the record is 335kg (about 740lbs).
2. I'd say if someone could do an unassisted chest press of 1000 lbs or a clean-and jerk of 1000 lbs, they are superhuman. By unassisted I mean without the use of supportive clothing, wraps or steroids.
3. Tearing a car door off a car can be done in more way than one. An open car door, snapped off at the hinges, I suspect is not a super-human feat. Putting my legs and shoulder into a violent shove, I'd like to think I'd be able to do that. If you're talking, as I presume you are, about doing it like Chris Reeve's Superman, no human could do it that easily, of course! Maybe those World's Strongest Man contestants could give it a go though. Speaking of which, here's a answer to the iron bar question: LINK
4. Not for chimps, gorillas, bears or elephants. But certainly for humans.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 26 August 2019 at 8:52am | IP Logged | 10
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Peter M. - I double checked my research and the common reply was 264 kg (582 lb*), as you noted. So I'll concur with your responses, and put the super human level at 583 pounds, and for a 200 pound human** and calculate 2.91 times a creature's mass would be super human.
*THREE AND A QUARTER TONS?!?!? What the HELL was I thinking? ** I noted that I used human, so we can include women^. But just due to the way humans are built, I will conclude that a man would set the record. ^ And let's not dicker about genders, okay?
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Richard Stevens
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1927
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| Posted: 26 August 2019 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | 11
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Being able to move 1000 pounds without preparation or gear sounds like a pretty reasonable bar to me... beyond that you start to wonder about bone density and how badly Spidey must hurt himself when he punches through a wall.
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2188
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| Posted: 26 August 2019 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | 12
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Thanks for the answers guys. It really puts in perspective of how pointless and scientifically unreliable those strength level charts in the OHOTMU (despite being really cool to know) are. It also show that a lot of these characters are way over powered in the strength level.
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