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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 20 July 2019 at 7:10am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

The thing is, anyone that reads a Stan Lee credited story can see his hallmarks all over the work, no matter which artist he worked with. I'm a huge admirer of Jack Kirby, but I found the stuff he did without Stan to be largely forgettable.

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Siome of the louder Kirby fans do not like it when anyone suggests they compare the stuff Jack did on his own--NEW GODS, DEMON, etc--with what Stan scripted. The basic stories were Jack's, sure but Stan had a way of taking them to the "next level".

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Craig Earl
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Posted: 20 July 2019 at 7:32am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Siome of the louder Kirby fans do not like it when anyone suggests they compare the stuff Jack did on his own--NEW GODS, DEMON, etc--with what Stan scripted. The basic stories were Jack's, sure but Stan had a way of taking them to the "next level".

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It was (along with Lee/Ditko) a heavenly partnership. I also have a love for those early DD issues with Wally Wood, a collaboration I would have liked to have seen more of.


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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 20 July 2019 at 7:27pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I remember this! And by the time Alan Moore referred to the incident, the story had morphed into Stan actually saying that he had created Cap.

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This sort of thing is why 1963 turned out the way it did. 
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Mitch Denoyer
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Posted: 21 July 2019 at 8:18am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Would it be at all fair to say that Stan REcreated Captain America?  The resurrected man out of time Cap is the one I love.  Without those aspects he loses the aspects that make him such a compelling character.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 July 2019 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Joe Simon was quoted as saying he considered CAPTAIN AMERICA to be a horror comic. Not much sign of that post AVENGERS 4.

(Just looking at my copy of AVENGERS 4, and being reminded once againthat Stan did not "build" to the somewhat morose Cap who became the defining version of the character. He's there from virtually the first words the revived Cap speaks.)

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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 July 2019 at 8:42am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Incidentally, the current rules at Marvel hold that the first people to write and draw a character are the “creators” of that character. Which would mean, since Joe Simon did BOTH, under the current rules Jack Kirby was strictly art-robot on CAPTAIN AMERICA.
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 21 July 2019 at 10:13am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

So, if say.....Joe Jones created a character right down to their background and costume design, but for some reason wasn't able to work on the comic, and Ann Smith wrote the comic they debuted in and Ron Jones (no relation) drew it, Ann and Ron would be considered the creators, not Joe?


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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 July 2019 at 10:23am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

No. But if Joe created the character(s) and drew their first appearance, but George Staffhack was assigned to script it, George would be considered co-creator.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 July 2019 at 11:32am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Sidebar: When Chris was cobbling together the New Mutants, concern was expressed that I might make some claim on them, since the idea was originally mine. Shooter called and asked what I intended to do. I said if Chris made no claim against Alpha Flight, I’d make no claim against the New Mutants. On the basis of that telephonic “handshake deal”, that’s where it’s stood since.

Seems like Chris got the better deal, doesn’t it?

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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 21 July 2019 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Considering how badly they've handled Alpha Flight since you left, and that they're making a New Mutants movie....sadly, yes.


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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 21 July 2019 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 John Byrne wrote:
...since Joe Simon did BOTH, under the current rules Jack Kirby was strictly art-robot on CAPTAIN AMERICA...

I recall interviews with Joe that I read where he suggests Kirby's role in Captain America's creation was pretty much just that.  Interestingly, I don't recall Simon claiming as such when Kirby was still alive.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 July 2019 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

We know that Joe did the pitch sketch, and that he wrote everything full script, so it does get kinda murky!
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