Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum
Topic: Irreplaceable members Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Just saw a posting about how today (or around here) is the 35th anniversary of X-Men #138, which has title copy "Exit Cyclops!"

To me, it was inconceivable (almost.) Taking Cyclops out of the X-Men is like taking out the hyphen in the name. A brief vacation or hiatus might be believable, but not for long term. Obviously, I know neither what Mr. Byrne nor Mr. Claremont intended, and he was back in a half dozen books... but while some critical characters come and go, I cannot think of some groups without that single member.

For me, it's Cyclops in the X-Men. Also, it's Robin in the Teen Titans. In the current era, I feel the same about Captain America in the Avengers, even though in the issues in the 40s and for a while didn't have Cap around. I also think the same about Superman in the Justice League, but it seems that TPTB at DC feel that Superman and Batman are just sales leads... "Justice League sales are dropping, boys. Bring Superman and Batman back, and start a brand new roster and story line." And when sales go back up, they drop the World's Finest team again.

Do you feel the same about any specific team and member? Or contrariwise, do you think there's a character who always sticks around that really shouldn't? Maybe Hawkeye in the Avengers or Aquaman in the Justice League (as examples.) Who should be the landmark of any team?
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132130
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 8:50am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Cyclops’ departure was meant to be temporary. In fact, to avoid a cliché, he was supposed to say as much in so many words. "I'll be back."

Once again, Chris chose to write against my intentions.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15726
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 9:13am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Perhaps because Wasp was chairperson when I collected the title, or because she is a founding member, but I feel the Avengers isn't quite right without her.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4506
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 9:26am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I can't imagine the Fantastic Four without Reed Richards. To get rid of Reed a writer should just be on a different book.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 10:27am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Robotman of the Doom Patrol has been kept on consistently and is considered a defining element of the team, in whatever iteration.

There is a story line in Andy Helfer and Kyle Baker's THE SHADOW in which the Shadow's agents try to carry on his war against crime after their Master is killed.

There are teams whose membership is so entrenched that adding members feels wrong. Additions to the Metal Men, such as Copper and Veridium (ptui!) seem tacked on and out of place. I don't know if they've ever tried anything like that with the Inferior Five, but I wouldn't like to see it. I think Bat-Mite joined the team in an issue of his own book, giving them all boosted powers and renaming them the Superior Six. That was a one issue thing however and not one I enjoyed.

Eric L, it's odd that for what seemed like the longest time in the early 90's, Reed was believed dead and replaced with Scott Lang. Story lines like that make it easy to ignore entire runs of a book for years at a time. Having things like having Franklin become Psi-Lord and join the Fantastic Force only compound the problem. The FF without Reed was a... you should forgive the term, bad stretch.

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12406
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Each of the Fantastic Four is irreplaceable. 

Cyclops, yes, must be on the X-Men.


Back to Top profile | search
 
Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 10:31am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

The Vision was the character I thought of as irreplaceable in the Avengers. Probably because he was central to the title when I began reading it in the early Seventies and he was the "cornerbox" figure for a long time. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4506
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

"forgive the term, bad stretch"

Brian, that comment is the best thing to come out of that portion of FF history. =)
Back to Top profile | search
 
Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 5:30pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Brian H. - re: the Metal Men - were they still the MM without Doc? Were they still as good with Nameless?

After reading Defenders from pretty much the beginning, it felt VERY off without Dr. Strange in the book. It probably would have felt the same without the Hulk.

Probably by nature of their huge membership, I think any member could have been out of the Legion of Super-Heroes and not have it feel terribly off. 

I thought all of the original Invaders were important. One or two new members didn't break things, but when they got rid of the kids, it became a little awkward feeling to me.

Then the Champions. Sigh. Maybe a clean sweep? 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8321
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 10:05pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The Fantasic Four without Reed, Ben, Sue and Johnny is NOT the Fantastic Four. Granted, I did enjoy the team with She-Hulk on it, but the team just isn't the same without all four original members.


Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4407
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I would feel a Legion Of Super-Heroes would need one of the three founders but I'm not sure why I feel this, but I guess maybe it is about feel. I would also feel there should be some character in The X-Men with a connection to the original series of the '60s even if just Professor Xavier. The Avengers with #16 way back was one of the earliest teams to have no members that were in #1, somewhat audacious of Stan and co.! I like to have The Wasp in it though, it feels more Avengery then to me too! :^)
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 16 July 2019 at 11:03pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Eric L, thank you! 

Eric S, Nameless brings up a good point! She was an excellent addition to the cast, giving the team a charming romantic success story to go along with Tina's constantly thwarted affections for Doc. Time has proven however, that neither Doc nor Nameless were "essential." Both vanished during the original run, and while Doc eventually returned, with a tragic case of "comic book insanity," Nameless's departure went unnoticed and her last appearance was a decade or more later in a single issue of Brave and the Bold. 

One of my favorite covers as a kid, was the MM walking out on Doc, telling him he could go order himself around for a while. Ah, the Aparo-ness of it makes my heart sing even today... :-) 

Even after he was back and in relatively good shape, Doc could be left by the wayside with no real harm. One of my favorite MM appearances, DCCP #4, has Star Labs and Superman filling in as robot repair people with no Doc in sight. 

However, even if a team member is not 100% "essential," that is not the only qualification for membership on a team. It's fine for other members to come and go sometimes, their membership lasting only as long as the story requires them. Some might even say that element is just as essential. You can't have every story be about Superman and Batman.

I came in to the Defenders much later than you, and for me, Nighthawk, Valkyrie, and the Hellcat were the "essential" building blocks of team, with the Hulk coming and going as his wont would have it. When DeMatteis stripped the team of that line-up, I was pretty much done with it. I get where the Titans Three line-up is key for many readers, as they were the characters the book was created to showcase, with the Silver Surfer as the one who came and went at that time. It's almost as if that team, more than others, has definite "eras" and lines of demarcation between them.

The Legion is unlike other teams, in that its membership rolls are vast, yet not a one of them carries their own solo series. They were all designed, from the get-go, to function as Legionnaires. If you don't see your favorite there, you don't see them at all. In that way, they're all equally "essential" which means none of them really are. The three who appeared in 1957 are regarded as founders, yet they serve no greater story purpose as such than any other member. 

The two who come closest to being indispensable (and no one is indispensable as anyone in middle management will tell you) are Brainiac Five and Chameleon Boy. B5 serves as the team's Reed Richards, providing the exposition and occasional Frankenstein creature run amok. His simple existence also speaks to the book being the future of the Superman franchise more so than anyone else's. He is the descendant of an established DC baddie, unfortunately created at a time when that baddie COULD have descendants. A bit of narrative fast stitching and that was fixed, but the seams still show. :-) 

Chameleon Boy is the team's Spock. He's the pointy-eared alien, reminding us all that this is a science fiction strip set in the future and we do interact with alien beings on a regular basis now. That turns out to be not so different from how super-teams operate "today," but the idea is still in there somewhere. His alien nature seems to demand that he be re-imagined with each reboot as a new and different type of alien being, either as stoic or as goofy as the new team feels fits their definition of "unearthly." 

The Invaders are an interesting case because, like the original Defenders, they were designed by Roy Thomas to provide a place where a very specific team of characters could gather, in this case, the Golden Age Cap, Namor, and Torch of Thomas's youth. As such, those guys can't be removed or it isn't the same book anymore. I kind of liked his additions to the team, but I think they helped set up some bad habits in him that he carried over to DC. 

The Champions were similar in concept to the Defenders except that where the Defenders were a non-team for people who would never join a team, the Champions were a mishmash of characters at loose ends after being dropped from other books. With Ghost Rider thrown in, I think, because the original idea for the book was just Warren and Bobby tooling about the country in a sweet car, Route 66 style, meeting Marvel characters from all around this great country of ours. Ghost Rider could be encountered, for instance, and we could do a story with him. 

Marvel's editorial team said that wasn't how they did books. It has to be a team. So, yeah, you could have Warren and Bobby, but you also have to include Herc, a former Avenger, and Natasha, recently bounced from her own book. And hey, that Ghost Rider idea works, too. Why not put him in there? I don't think anyone wanted to do the Champions as a book of its own from the start, but hey, you get a "thumbs up" from the bosses, what are you going to do? Turn down work? I think they made a game attempt at making it fly.

Me, I still think Warren and Bobby in a hot rod would make for a fun mini-series at the very least.

The FF is a family at the core of it, and families grow and change. In the end, the core members remain in everyone's heart, but marriages occur, children are born, and people move. I actually kind of like how subject to change the dynamic has been, from a certain point of view. She-Hulk was at her best during her tenure there, and I dig how tense things got when Medusa and Crystal came in. I don't know if the FF is the right book for them, but I seriously want to spend more time reading the adventures of Ben, Tigra, Thundra, and Impy! "The Emerald and the Orange," maybe? I'll keep at it... 

In any case, part of what defines the FF is their turbulent relationship with one another. Anyone could walk out at any time and did. That particular story line without Reed didn't work, but I could see one that might. I still probably wouldn't enjoy it much. I really do like Reed. 


Edited by Brian Hague on 16 July 2019 at 11:10pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login
If you are not already registered you must first register

  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login