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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 7:52am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

It would kind of defeat the point of the Marvel method to have the scripter and artist run through the plot verbally and then have the scripter write up copious pages of detailed page-by-page plot. That ain't the Marvel method.

••

Well........

"Copious pages" is the very definition of a Claremont plot. In the days of IRON FIST and early X-MEN, he would often send a 14 or 15 page plot for a 17 page story! Eventually, I learned that he was selling copies of his plots at conventions, so he was formatting them like short stories, written to be read, not simply to inform the artist.

(This was what led to my habit of reading the plot once and tossing it away. I drew what I remembered, since I knew that would be what was really important. Seemed to work!)

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Interesting! Thanks for the clarification and extra info. Always fascinating to hear the little details of what went on behind the scenes.
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Nathan Greno
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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Here’s the latest “reveal” — 


Since on Sunday there's no much audience here, I'll return to the LOST ARTICLE by Byrne intended to be published inside of the lettercol of #137. Both excerpts will answer some doubts posted here.

The first excerpt follows what I already posted. Byrne assumes the blame to get rid of the character, which is not new, but the main difference is that this time he was going to do it in front of the readers of the book when the subject was hot, instead of doing it for a magazine with a 10-15k print run.

The second excerpt is the last one of the article which shows that he wrote it for the original ending, and teases with Sentinels.

Just an additional note: This article was retyped by Chris Claremont to add an introduction. At the end, Claremont added a small text after the ending was changed to introduce the album issue, since he mentions the "Elegy" title.

If you reread the 'Art of JB' you'll find out that Claremont and Byrne had plans for the sentinels way before of 'Days of Future Days' but with a different approach, man-sized. This is what Byrne is teasing, not Days of Future Past, which was conceived in 1979 during the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga as one of the first graphic novels. But I'll cover that in a few days.

In the excerpts of TCJ #57 (1980) and 76 (1982) Byrne clearly talks about working from PLOTS.

About the death of Phoenix perfectly described in the original plots of the Saga, I posted a clue in the last image, from the UPC code of the cover of #136. An advance: When Salicrup came aboard, he approved the split of #135 in TWO comics, so this fact delayed the death of Phoenix to #136. 

And now, focus on what the cover of #136 REALLY shows: The DEATH of Phoenix. Can't you see the horror and grief in the faces of the characters? That's because "she's dead, Jim".




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Nathan Greno
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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply



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Nathan Greno
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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 7:08pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Well, of course I worked from “plots”. I wasn’t making it up as I went along! As already noted, the plots were the notes I took when talking the issues over with Chris.

And Boy Sherlock wants to use a literal interpretation of a symbolic cover and a JOKE to prove his point? Oy!

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Matt Hawes
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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 7:38pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Whew! That fella can rest easy knowing he cracked this case, and revealed the grand conspiracy concocted by the devious JB! You can't pull the wool over our eyes, anymore, JB... this guy's got yer number! (sarcarsm)

Sheesh! 
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 9:00pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I think the only thing new to me here is (and I had/have Comics Journal #57, Art Of, and Chronicles I & II)... nothing.

The aspargus people died, JB drew them to make her trial make more sense = Phoenix must die!!! Even when I thought it was all Shooter's fault I still agreed with it. It was well done, logical, can't complain when something works. After that I disliked everything except... it seemed a basically good thing to rescue Jean Grey from the whole mess in that Avengers/FF story (and then soon after that I basically buggered off as a reader/buyer).

Well there's the one small thing I never liked; the gun on the moon that offed Phoenix/whoevertheheckthatwas??? Just some smallish pop-up gun and wham, scorched earth, it's over? I kind of would've liked a better than the Ambrose Bierce blow to the head from behind end; the gun didn't look all that formidable or worthy. Given more time maybe I'd have liked entire planets slammed into her over three pages and gore splashed on Cyclops, but I was fine with it at the time and still now. It made sense, it felt right, the various risings from the ashes for the entity left much to be desired though. Very underwhelmed by Madelyn and Rachel etc., and it seemed daft to bring Jean Grey back into it permanently, after having gone to all the trouble to extricate her as separate. Sigh.

edited for typos as had to send quick to catch Supergirl.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 12 May 2019 at 10:27pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 12 May 2019 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

She fell on her sword. No need for planetocide.

This 'blowing our minds' case reminds me of a line from Bull Durham: "How come in former lifetimes, everbody's always somebody famous?"

Why is it the most famous comics story happens to have some secret revelations?


Edited by Peter Martin on 12 May 2019 at 9:31pm
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Brian Miller
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 5:20am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

That guy’s trying too hard. 
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:01am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

...it seemed daft to bring Jean Grey back into it permanently, after having gone to all the trouble to extricate her as separate

•••

Your memory is failing you. Bringing back Jean Grey introduced the idea that she and Phoenix were separate entities.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 13 May 2019 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Tangent: imagine if John Byrne had left the X-MEN at issue #124, the final issue before "the dramatic return of Phoenix" in #125. How much of the entire world of Marvel would have been utterly other! I often think that what preceded the justly famous Phoenix saga is unjustly not celebrated. Some great stuff there, but nothing to obsess about (for decades!), I suppose.
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