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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 26 April 2019 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 1
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Careful!“First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. “Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist. “Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. “Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.” Martin Neimöller (1892 - 1984)
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Rich Johnston
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 February 2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 23
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| Posted: 26 April 2019 at 9:43am | IP Logged | 2
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Acts Chapter 10 9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” 14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” 15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” 16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven. ----- All sorts has been extrapolated from that.
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Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26 April 2019 at 10:34am | IP Logged | 3
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Koroush's post got me thinking, this thread could just as easily have been called FEMALE and Christian.
Marc
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Brandon Frye
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 November 2004
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| Posted: 26 April 2019 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
| Christians have convinced themselves that the New Testament writes over the Old |
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Which begs the question, if God is perfect as the Christians believe, why is there a revised edition of His manual?
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Joined: 02 July 2009
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| Posted: 26 April 2019 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 5
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Well, the Bible doesn't explicitly say that it's a sin being female (though it's certainly implied!).
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 26 April 2019 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 6
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That revised edition comment falls under the heading of what I’ve long said about prayer. If God is perfect, who are we to ask him to change his mind?
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Marc Baptiste
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| Posted: 26 April 2019 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 7
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I had a good laugh the other day listening to some speakers on a Christian radio program deride the Mormon and Jehovah's Witness faiths as "cults" in no small part because they had holy books that heretically "added" onto the Bible --- failing miserably to grasp the irony that their own "NEW" Testament was an completely NEW REVISED ADDITION.
Marc
Edited by Marc Baptiste on 26 April 2019 at 12:07pm
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Steven Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004
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| Posted: 26 April 2019 at 9:24pm | IP Logged | 8
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Pat Buchanan recently: "Indeed, if the mayor’s (Pete Buttigieg) lifestyle is moral, Christianity got it wrong for 20 centuries".
Yes, Pat. It's true. Christianity got it wrong for 20 centuries!
I'd say any fundamentalist would have to believe homosexuality is wrong. But if you are a more liberal Christian*, you don't believe the Bible is the word of god. Therefore, the Bible can be wrong.
I'm agnostic enough to say I can't prove there isn't a "god". The specifics of the bible are so odd, contradictory, and sometimes immoral that I can't believe that the religions based on it are real. But that doesn't necessarily mean there couldn't be something god-like that exists in the multiverse.
* or Muslim or Jew.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 27 April 2019 at 2:10am | IP Logged | 9
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Cafeteria Christianity. Just pick the parts you like.___________________
Well, no. But there is the important factor of reading things in context. If God tells Moses to "Tell the Israelites" to wear their clothes or hair a certain way, that is not a rule for me as a Christian. Likewise, if He tells them to stone someone practicing witchcraft, that is not an order to me to go kill a Wiccan. God does not change, but WE do. And, so, sometimes the way He deals with us changes too.
Just the fact that we have Old and New Testaments--or Covenants--shows that God modifies the way He deals with mankind--as time passes and we and the world change. These are not contradictions, they are just revealing truths in stages. (Indeed, the Old Testament is not just one covenant, it describes multiple covenants that God had with His people--the Noahic covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant, and more.) If Moses has a command from God that says "Do Not Murder" and Jesus says "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer in his heart" (or "Do not commit adultery" and "Lust is adultery of the heart") these are not contradictory, they are revelatory...in proper time.
And, yes, Jesus confirmed the Old Testament and said He did not come to change it. Rather, he came to FULFILL it, and He did this by dying on the Cross. The Old Testament shows what sin is, how it brings death, and how none of us is righteous enough to be sinless on our own merits. The Old Testament shows us that--from Adam's first sin to our own individual sins--we are under a death penalty, and the New Testament tells us how Jesus fulfills the Old Testament death penalty by taking it on Himself.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1646
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| Posted: 27 April 2019 at 3:44am | IP Logged | 10
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Eric Jansen wrote:
| Well, no. But there is the important factor of reading things in context. |
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Interesting. So when God says, in Ephesians 6 (New Testament):
"Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as you would Christ. Don’t work only while being watched..."
The important thing is to consider the context: He's not speaking to those of us who aren't slaves; he's speaking directly only to the actual slaves who are suffering right now, telling them to stay in line and work hard for their earthly masters. That context does make a difference.
Eric Jansen wrote:
| Just the fact that we have Old and New Testaments--or Covenants--shows that God modifies the way He deals with mankind--as time passes and we and the world change. |
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Spot on. That's why in the period since the New Testament was generally revealed as a whole (around the 4th Century AD), nothing has changed significantly on the planet for God to come out and revise advice, such as the verse above. Looking around, the 21st Century is essentially the same as the early first millenium AD.
I imagine for example that after millions of his chosen people were murdered during WWII, He still felt there was no need for a new Covenant. Minor speedbump on the path to Zion and all that.
He, in his perfection, also foresaw that stonings, slavery and suppression of gays, females and sundry other incorrigible troublemakers would be necessary for a couple of thousand years or so, hence there's still no need for Him to come down and reveal a newer version to the rest of us.
We await the proper time for the new revelation to begin.
Steven Myers wrote:
| I'd say any fundamentalist would have to believe homosexuality is wrong. But if you are a more liberal Christian*, you don't believe the Bible is the word of god. Therefore, the Bible can be wrong. |
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With respect, it's absurd for a Christian to think of the Bible as anything other than either the word of God, or a direction that is intimately inspired by God, because otherwise, that would mean it's just a book of guesses written by humans.
Even if you don't take the words literally, and many noted Bible scholars insist that it must be taken literally, then the general lessons in the Bible are shockingly barbaric. What does Noah's story tell us of God, even if taken only as a parable, other than "Obey me or I'll indiscriminately destroy the innocent with the guilty"?
Steven Myers wrote:
| I'm agnostic enough to say I can't prove there isn't a "god". |
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I've raised this point before and JB hated it when I said it then, but I don't consider myself agnostic when, as an atheist, I say that I can't prove or state conclusively that a God or Gods don't exist. The point is, it's not up to anyone to prove that something doesn't exist, it's up to believers to show something resembling conclusive or compelling evidence that it does exist. Otherwise it can simply be ignored.
Case in point: I can't prove that Leprechauns exist. But I don't need to. Up until the point where they are proven to exist, and have some tangible impact on my life, they are totally irrelevant. Same with God: there is zero evidence that Biblical God, or Koranic Allah, or whatever, exists, in terms of the promises He makes (such as responding to prayer).
What I say to believers is that as an Atheist, I'm not going to insist that a God or Gods, Supreme being(s), omnipotent aliens or whatever definitely don't exist; I can't pretend to know what an infinite Universe holds.
But what I can say is that unless I am presented irrefutable proof of their existence:
- God(s) are as good as nonexistent;
- It's arrogance for a believer to insist that they know for certain that He does exist;
- It's superstition (not "faith") to believe in something without adequate evidence;
- And it is equal parts wishful thinking and a lack of comprehension skills to suggest that the ocean of text in the Bible or the Koran portrays God/Allah as anything other than a singularly mean-spirited, insecure, genocidal tyrant who uses us as pawns, having designed us imperfectly due to his ineptitude or for amusement.
P.S. Sorry for the long post. A rant turned into a short novel :(
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 27 April 2019 at 5:33am | IP Logged | 11
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...JB hated it...•• "Hated" is far too strong a word.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 27 April 2019 at 5:38am | IP Logged | 12
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Jesus confirmed the Old Testament and said He did not come to change it. Rather, he came to FULFILL it, and He did this by dying on the Cross.•• Except that was no part of Messianic lore, was it? Nothing there about the Messiah being arrested, tortured and killed. So it becomes necessary to add fantasy to fantasy, and concoct absurd reasons for the events of Jesus' last days.
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