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John Byrne
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Posted: 25 April 2019 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Pete Buttigeig

I dunno. I sure wouldn’t want to belong to a club that explicitly wants me dead.

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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 25 April 2019 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I used to be more understanding of those who considered themselves gay AND Christian.  However, as I have grown older, more educated, and hopefully wiser, I have found my sympathies for these individuals wane significantly.

Both the Old and New Testament are fairly unambiguous in their condemnation of homosexuality (especially male homosexuality) - and even if you accept that Leviticus does not apply to Gentiles (Christians), you still have Romans in the New Testament to contend with.

Marc

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Jeffrey Rice
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Posted: 25 April 2019 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

My sister is a devout catholic and volunteers regularly at her church. There is no secrets about her sexuality either. I really don't get it one bit.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 12:25am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

For the record, I'm a Christian and I don't want anybody dead.
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 4:31am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Same here. I'm a Presbyterian in West Virginia and my own church has accepted gay members since the mid-90's. In our Christmas play this past year, Joseph was portrayed by a young man who happens to be gay. No one had an issue with it.

Edited by Shawn Kane on 26 April 2019 at 4:35am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 5:46am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Cafeteria Christianity. Just pick the parts you like.

But there’s nothing in the Bible that allows for that, is there? Nothing that says as time goes by THIS rule can be modified, THAT rule can be ignored. It’s an All or Nothing proposition—except Nothing isn’t an option.

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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 6:22am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I've often heard that from believers and non-believers both but I was raised to believe that we aren't the judge of others. "An eye for an eye" or "Turn the other cheek"? We can't do both but I know which on makes more sense if you're told to "Love your neighbor". My faith is a personal thing (one of the reasons I usually stay out of these threads).

Edited by Shawn Kane on 26 April 2019 at 6:23am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 6:39am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

“Love your neighbor...” provided you agree which side God parts his hair.
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Tim Cousar
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 6:58am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

People who work on Sunday, people who eat shellfish...
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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 7:38am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Christians have convinced themselves that the New Testament writes over the Old, yet Jesus himself said the opposite.

(For ease of discussion I reference Jesus as if he really existed, tho there is no irrefutable evidence to support that claim.)

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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 8:11am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

If you brainwash someone at a young enough age - especially if it's done by the parents - then no matter what knowledge and evidence they gain access to afterwards, they will always revert to that emotional programming.

That's how you get a gay guy completely overlooking the hatred of gays in the Bible, or a woman overlooking the misogynistic nonsense therein, etc. Their priority is to apply their intellect to rationalise the irrational, instead of simply dispelling it.

Imagine someone saying "I'm a Vegetarian but I eat meat". That's what I hear when I hear somebody saying "I'm a Christian but I don't hate gays", or "Islam is the religion of Peace", or "God is Love".
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Mike Benson
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

All Christians overlook something, don’t they?  But so long as they don’t impose their beliefs on me, not my business.   
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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Careful!

“First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

“Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

“Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

“Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”

Martin Neimöller (1892 - 1984)

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Rich Johnston
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 9:43am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Acts Chapter 10

About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

-----

All sorts has been extrapolated from that.

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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 10:34am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Koroush's post got me thinking, this thread could just as easily have been called FEMALE and Christian.

Marc
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Brandon Frye
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 16 post reply


 QUOTE:
Christians have convinced themselves that the New Testament writes over the Old

Which begs the question, if God is perfect as the Christians believe, why is there a revised edition of His manual? 


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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Well, the Bible doesn't explicitly say that it's a sin being female (though it's certainly implied!).  
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John Byrne
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

That revised edition comment falls under the heading of what I’ve long said about prayer. If God is perfect, who are we to ask him to change his mind?
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Marc Baptiste
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

I had a good laugh the other day listening to some speakers on a Christian radio program deride the Mormon and Jehovah's Witness faiths as "cults" in no small part because they had holy books that heretically "added" onto the Bible --- failing miserably to grasp the irony that their own "NEW" Testament was an completely NEW REVISED ADDITION.

Marc


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 26 April 2019 at 12:07pm
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Steven Myers
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Posted: 26 April 2019 at 9:24pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Pat Buchanan recently: "Indeed, if the mayor’s (Pete Buttigieg) lifestyle is moral, Christianity got it wrong for 20 centuries".

Yes, Pat. It's true. Christianity got it wrong for 20 centuries!

I'd say any fundamentalist would have to believe homosexuality is wrong. But if you are a more liberal Christian*, you don't believe the Bible is the word of god. Therefore, the Bible can be wrong.

I'm agnostic enough to say I can't prove there isn't a "god". The specifics of the bible are so odd, contradictory, and sometimes immoral that I can't believe that the religions based on it are real. But that doesn't necessarily mean there couldn't be something god-like that exists in the multiverse.

* or Muslim or Jew.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 27 April 2019 at 2:10am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Cafeteria Christianity. Just pick the parts you like.
___________________

Well, no.  But there is the important factor of reading things in context.  If God tells Moses to "Tell the Israelites" to wear their clothes or hair a certain way, that is not a rule for me as a Christian.  Likewise, if He tells them to stone someone practicing witchcraft, that is not an order to me to go kill a Wiccan.  God does not change, but WE do.  And, so, sometimes the way He deals with us changes too.

Just the fact that we have Old and New Testaments--or Covenants--shows that God modifies the way He deals with mankind--as time passes and we and the world change.  These are not contradictions, they are just revealing truths in stages.  (Indeed, the Old Testament is not just one covenant, it describes multiple covenants that God had with His people--the Noahic covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, the Mosaic covenant, and more.)  If Moses has a command from God that says "Do Not Murder" and Jesus says "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer in his heart" (or "Do not commit adultery" and "Lust is adultery of the heart") these are not contradictory, they are revelatory...in proper time.

And, yes, Jesus confirmed the Old Testament and said He did not come to change it.  Rather, he came to FULFILL it, and He did this by dying on the Cross.  The Old Testament shows what sin is, how it brings death, and how none of us is righteous enough to be sinless on our own merits.  The Old Testament shows us that--from Adam's first sin to our own individual sins--we are under a death penalty, and the New Testament tells us how Jesus fulfills the Old Testament death penalty by taking it on Himself.
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 27 April 2019 at 3:44am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

 Eric Jansen wrote:
Well, no. But there is the important factor of reading things in context.


Interesting. So when God says, in Ephesians 6 (New Testament):

"Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as you would Christ. Don’t work only while being watched..."

The important thing is to consider the context: He's not speaking to those of us who aren't slaves; he's speaking directly only to the actual slaves who are suffering right now, telling them to stay in line and work hard for their earthly masters. That context does make a difference.


 Eric Jansen wrote:
Just the fact that we have Old and New Testaments--or Covenants--shows that God modifies the way He deals with mankind--as time passes and we and the world change.


Spot on. That's why in the period since the New Testament was generally revealed as a whole (around the 4th Century AD), nothing has changed significantly on the planet for God to come out and revise advice, such as the verse above. Looking around, the 21st Century is essentially the same as the early first millenium AD.

I imagine for example that after millions of his chosen people were murdered during WWII, He still felt there was no need for a new Covenant. Minor speedbump on the path to Zion and all that.

He, in his perfection, also foresaw that stonings, slavery and suppression of gays, females and sundry other incorrigible troublemakers would be necessary for a couple of thousand years or so, hence there's still no need for Him to come down and reveal a newer version to the rest of us.

We await the proper time for the new revelation to begin.

 Steven Myers wrote:
I'd say any fundamentalist would have to believe homosexuality is wrong. But if you are a more liberal Christian*, you don't believe the Bible is the word of god. Therefore, the Bible can be wrong.


With respect, it's absurd for a Christian to think of the Bible as anything other than either the word of God, or a direction that is intimately inspired by God, because otherwise, that would mean it's just a book of guesses written by humans.

Even if you don't take the words literally, and many noted Bible scholars insist that it must be taken literally, then the general lessons in the Bible are shockingly barbaric. What does Noah's story tell us of God, even if taken only as a parable, other than "Obey me or I'll indiscriminately destroy the innocent with the guilty"?

 Steven Myers wrote:
I'm agnostic enough to say I can't prove there isn't a "god".


I've raised this point before and JB hated it when I said it then, but I don't consider myself agnostic when, as an atheist, I say that I can't prove or state conclusively that a God or Gods don't exist. The point is, it's not up to anyone to prove that something doesn't exist, it's up to believers to show something resembling conclusive or compelling evidence that it does exist. Otherwise it can simply be ignored.

Case in point: I can't prove that Leprechauns exist. But I don't need to. Up until the point where they are proven to exist, and have some tangible impact on my life, they are totally irrelevant. Same with God: there is zero evidence that Biblical God, or Koranic Allah, or whatever, exists, in terms of the promises He makes (such as responding to prayer).

What I say to believers is that as an Atheist, I'm not going to insist that a God or Gods, Supreme being(s), omnipotent aliens or whatever definitely don't exist; I can't pretend to know what an infinite Universe holds.

But what I can say is that unless I am presented irrefutable proof of their existence:

- God(s) are as good as nonexistent;
- It's arrogance for a believer to insist that they know for certain that He does exist;
- It's superstition (not "faith") to believe in something without adequate evidence;
- And it is equal parts wishful thinking and a lack of comprehension skills to suggest that the ocean of text in the Bible or the Koran portrays God/Allah as anything other than a singularly mean-spirited, insecure, genocidal tyrant who uses us as pawns, having designed us imperfectly due to his ineptitude or for amusement.


P.S. Sorry for the long post. A rant turned into a short novel :(
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 April 2019 at 5:33am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

...JB hated it...

••

"Hated" is far too strong a word.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 April 2019 at 5:38am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

Jesus confirmed the Old Testament and said He did not come to change it. Rather, he came to FULFILL it, and He did this by dying on the Cross.

••

Except that was no part of Messianic lore, was it? Nothing there about the Messiah being arrested, tortured and killed.

So it becomes necessary to add fantasy to fantasy, and concoct absurd reasons for the events of Jesus' last days.

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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 27 April 2019 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

There are over 300 prophecies in the Old Testament that all point to Jesus being the Messiah, and many of them talk about Him suffering.  From the very beginning in GENESIS 3:15 where it talks about "the seed of the woman" crushing (destroying) "the seed of the serpent" but being struck in the heel himself (injured) to the later prophetic books like ISAIAH (ch. 53, around 700 b.c.) that describes God's "Suffering Servant."  But the prophetic PSALM 22 of David (about 1000 b.c.) DOES describe the Messiah being arrested, tortured, and killed.  (I'll bold the parts that seem to specifically describe what the Messiah would suffer on the Cross.)

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
(The first thing that Jesus said on the Cross, obviously pointing anyone who knew their scripture to this very psalm.)
    
Why are you so far from saving me,
    so far from my cries of anguish?
My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
    by night, but I find no rest.

Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
    you are the one Israel praises.
In you our ancestors put their trust;
    they trusted and you delivered them.
To you they cried out and were saved;
    in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

But I am a worm and not a man,
    scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
All who see me mock me;
    they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
“He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”

Yet you brought me out of the womb;
    you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
    from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
    for trouble is near
    and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
    strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
    open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
(when the soldier pierced his side)
    and all my bones are out of joint.
(happens hanging on a cross for hours)
My heart has turned to wax;

    it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
    
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
(He asked for water, they gave Him vinegar)
    you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs surround me,
(gentiles would have been called "dogs" at this time)
    
a pack of villains encircles me,
(the Sanhedrin court that condemned Him met in a circular room)
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
(even the Romans didn't practice crucifixion until hundreds of years after this psalm was written)

17 All my bones are on display;
    people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
    You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
    my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
    save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my people;
    in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
    All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
    Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
    the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
    but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
    before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
    those who seek the Lord will praise him—
    may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
    will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
    will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
    and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
    all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
    those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
    future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
    declaring to a people yet unborn:
    He has done it!
(And the last thing Jesus said on the Cross was "It is finished!")

This psalm of David, God's poet, describes what Jesus was feeling on the Cross, a thousand years later.



Edited by Eric Jansen on 27 April 2019 at 5:48pm
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