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Rick Whiting Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Posts: 2188
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 1
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One thing you can definitely credit or blame Geoff Johns for is turning Black Adam into an antihero. He’s DC’s Namor, now.
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Very true. Johns turned Black Adam into a combo of Namor and Vegeta from DBZ.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 2
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I was thinking about that time in JSA where Billy was explaining to (I think) Stargirl that when he is Captain Marvel he has all of his teenage thoughts and feelings swirling around in his head and mixed in with the Wisdom of Solomon (or something like that)
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There was a scene with Billy and Stargirl where he explained that he was desperate to pass a makeup test at school. He was left alone in the room, and he had the idea to change into Captain Marvel to use the Wisdom of Solomon to pass the the test. Once he changed, however, that same wisdom would not allow him to cheat, so he had to complete the exam as Billy. That’s the exact opposite of the superhero version of BIG.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | 3
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Johns turned Black Adam into a combo of Namor and Vegeta from DBZ.
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This is a perfect description of Johns’ Black Adam.
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Rick Whiting Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Posts: 2188
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 4
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There was a scene with Billy and Stargirl where he explained that he was desperate to pass a makeup test at school. He was left alone in the room, and he had the idea to change into Captain Marvel to use the Wisdom of Solomon to pass the the test. Once he changed, however, that same wisdom would not allow him to cheat, so he had to complete the exam as Billy. That’s the exact opposite of the superhero version of BIG.
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True, but that scene certainly SEEMED to toy with the idea of him being the superhero version of Big (in a very subtle manner)
Edited by Rick Whiting on 09 April 2019 at 6:34pm
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16430
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | 5
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Here's a nice video detailing the history of the original Captain Marvel:
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 11 April 2019 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | 6
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Ordway's "Power of Shazam" take on the character may have made him less of the child-like idiot of "Legends" and "Justice League Int'l," but it does not greatly resemble the original. Billy gaining the wisdom not to cheat on his test when he becomes Captain Marvel is admirable, but he is still Billy in both iterations. The separate personality and identity of Captain Marvel remains lost in the translation, in favor of him just being Billy (albeit a more moral version in this case, doing the character of Billy no favors.)
Many more fannish conceits clogged that title, such as Mary being beautiful in super-heroine form and plain in real life and the power being divided between the three primary Marvel Family members, making it less useful to have one come to the rescue of the others, since the transformation would then reduce the first one's power by half or even two-thirds. Back in the day, the Lieutenant Marvels shared only a fraction of Captain Marvel's power in a similar manner, but this is hardly an improvement when introduced into the Marvel Family proper.
So, no, Billy becoming wise enough not to cheat is not the "opposite" of BIG. It's just a slightly modified take on the idea. Billy is still Billy-in-a-grown-up-suit. The character of Captain Marvel himself is nowhere to be found in it.
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 12 April 2019 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 7
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Brian, another problem I had with PoS* was that Billy could Shazam up a different version of his uniform - in this case, a space suit, complete with an oxygen supply.
I'm one of those who thinks the really BIG guns should be able to survive in outer space for a considerable time, even if not indefinitely (e.g., Captain Marvel somehow trapped on the Moon might eventually die**... but he'd have no problem flying from Earth to Venus.) I know that Mr. Byrne went a different route with Superman, and of course, his character trumps my opinion.
*Say, that does make it hard to use the abbreviation to refer to it, doesn't it? I'll wager the All-Star Squadron had the same issue.
**I read once that Captain Marvel was the World's Mightiest Mortal because half his life was spent as the entirely mortal Billy Batson. This made me wonder if Billy, at the end of his life, said one last "Shazam!" and made Captain Marvel a kind of sort of were-zombie... and again, that's pushing the discussion too far. God, I'm old...
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132286
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Posted: 12 April 2019 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 8
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I read once that Captain Marvel was the World's Mightiest Mortal because half his life was spent as the entirely mortal Billy Batson. This made me wonder if Billy, at the end of his life, said one last "Shazam!" and made Captain Marvel a kind of sort of were-zombie... and again, that's pushing the discussion too far. God, I'm old...•• One reason some of you might be happy there never was a GENERATIONS 4 is that I had considered going very DARK with Billy and Cap. Joining Billy as a middle-aged man, we would find he was using Captain Marvel more and more to escape from his dead end life, neglecting his wife and kids. I shudder to think of it, now, but that's where DC was at the time. As Dave Gibbons once noted, "grim and gritty" had become GLUM.
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David Schmidt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 July 2017 Location: France Posts: 441
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Posted: 12 April 2019 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 9
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I'm not happy. Generations is one of my favorite books...
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Brennan Voboril Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011 Posts: 1734
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Posted: 13 April 2019 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 10
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'One reason some of you might be happy there never was a GENERATIONS 4 is that I had considered going very DARK with Billy and Cap. Joining Billy as a middle-aged man, we would find he was using Captain Marvel more and more to escape from his dead end life, neglecting his wife and kids."
Count me as someone who would have been very happy to see Generations 4. I loved that series so much. It so reminded me of the old Imaginary Tales I read as a boy. Even though all comics are imaginary, something about seeing what happened to Superman etc. in those Silver Age books was so exciting!
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Adam Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017 Posts: 1717
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Posted: 13 April 2019 at 9:24pm | IP Logged | 11
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One reason some of you might be happy there never was a GENERATIONS 4 is that I had considered going very DARK with Billy and Cap. Joining Billy as a middle-aged man, we would find he was using Captain Marvel more and more to escape from his dead end life, neglecting his wife and kids.
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I think Frank Miller used a variation of this -- minus the wife and kids -- in DK2. JB -- did he get the idea from you?
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 14 April 2019 at 12:50am | IP Logged | 12
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Robert Mayer's "Super Folks" features a villain who turns out to be the incestuous result of a sexual encounter between that world's equivalent of Billy and Mary when they were tied up together by a pervert.
Alan Moore's unproduced "Twilight" proposal featured the various DC "families" forming royal houses to govern the Earth. The Marvel's House of Thunder is presided over by Billy who has married his sister Mary and had a daughter by her. He'll later find that she is having a Lancelot-Guinevere style affair with Freddy, precipitating the downfall of their "kingdom."
Of course, Moore's "Marvelman" is an apocalyptic take on a middle-aged Mickey Moran remembering his magic word and finding no time in his life for his wife or civilian identity any longer now that he has adventure and Miraclewoman to prod and coerce him into greater and greater feats of daring and social change.
Waid and Ross's "Kingdom Come" featured a brainwashed Billy Batson becoming Lex Luthor's mental broken henchman. Kyle Baker killed Billy off in the final issue of his Plastic Man series and in a commentary on the "Identity Crisis" tone of comics at the time, had the villains give Billy's body to Doctor Light so it could be raped, which the caption says "is kind of his super-power now."
Really, going "dark" with Billy and his compatriots is the least original thing one can do in comics this side of having someone call Superman a "boy scout." I know I always tremble at how groundbreaking it is when some cutting-edge wonk pulls that one...
Edited by Brian Hague on 14 April 2019 at 12:54am
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