Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
TV
Byrne Robotics > TV << Prev Page of 11 Next >>
Topic: Game of Thrones Final Season Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12748
Posted: 13 May 2019 at 10:56pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Well she didn't lose her mind after the loss of her actual child, did she?  

óó-

Well, she did throw herself into a big bonfire clutching her dragon eggs. I mean, sure, she had some signs that she was fireproof, but itís a big leap from not getting burned by a hot egg and throwing yourself into a big bonfire. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Jozef Brandt
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 March 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 2447
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 3:24am | IP Logged | 2 post reply


Contrivances galore...D&D, soon to be in charge of Star Wars.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12748
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 3:36am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Contrivances galore...D&D, soon to be in charge of Star Wars.

-----

As a reminder, in the prequels, Anakin decided to murder a whole bunch of children because he was having nightmares about his wife. Dany's character arc is a significant step up.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3246
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 7:06am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I'm seriously starting to wonder if there's a Mandella effect going on in real time.  It's not just that I have a different opinion of the show than a vocal minority.  That's been true of a lot of shows.  Its that when they sensibly describe their problems with this season, it honestly sounds like they've been watching an alternate version of the show from what I've been watching all these years.  Several of the characters are different in their attitudes and behavior, for example.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3710
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

 Matt Hawes wrote:
Why is it so hard for so many viewers to believe that Dany would lose her mind after losing Jorah, Missandei, her closest friends, two of her dragons, creatures she considers to be her children, and after her paranoia of being betrayed?


The question is why winning would be the final straw.

Up until that moment, her movements were generally strategic - take out the fleet, take out the battlements, clear the gate for her troops to take out the opposing forces, etc.. Yes, there was likely "collateral damage," but nothing compared to what happened after the city surrendered. After that, it was straight up wholesale destruction, to the point where she didn't seem to care that her own people were still in the city, too.

More indiscriminate destruction pre-bells might have helped. Or maybe even some shots of her clearly enjoying the destruction she was causing? (Next time I see the episode I'll need to pay more attention to that.)

As it stands, it's like she weathered all the setbacks and sacrifices only to snap the moment she achieved her life's goal.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3710
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 Rodrigo castellanos wrote:
If I were Dany I wouldn't think in a million years that just because the bells rang and the Golden Company surrendered that means Cersei would turn herself in quietly with no backup plan


That gets back to my thing about an "inciting event." I get that she would be on edge. I just would have liked something to set her off. Hell, it could be a glare from the Red Keep, even. Just some "evidence of betrayal", even if none was actually attempted or planned.


 QUOTE:
Also, it was a display of power which we also know is something Daenerys is not above. These people don't know her, everybody in her entourage seems to be having treasonous thoughts, after seeing this anyone trying to overthrow her will be thinking it twice.


She destroyed a fleet of ships and the battlements of King's Landing in 10 minutes. Power's pretty much demonstrated by that point.    


 QUOTE:
This is fantasy medieval warfare, it's surprising to me that people are being that sensitive about it, what did they expect? Daenerys to respect the Geneva Convention?


It's more that you'd expect her to follow her own rules - what happens in battle (or immediately following), happens in battle. Once the smoke clears, give them the standard choice - loyalty or death.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14803
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I think what made Dany snap, so to speak,  was when she gazed at the Red Keep and it looked like all the memories and emotions of the past weeks began to hit her. The beheading of her adviser and closest friend apparently had already started her to unravel. 


Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12748
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

The question is why winning would be the final straw. 

--------

Because Dany paid a huge price to win, while Cersei and King's Landing paid very little to lose. As soon as she arrived in Westeros, she wanted to fly up to the Red Keep with her dragons and just take the Iron Throne. Instead, she listened to everyone else and tried to win over the people. What happened? She lost two of her closest friends, two of her dragons, more than half her army, and she still didn't have the love of the people.

So she ended up winning by doing what she wanted to do to begin with, and Cersei surrendered after just losing a bunch of mercs, when she could have easily done so when Dany arrived. Dany's reaction was very understandable, and I don't think it was "mad" at all. If she was going to sacrifice all that she did to win, then King's Landing was going to make some huge sacrifices to lose.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 6321
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

She murderered innocent people, along with the soldiers. I don't see this ending with her on the throne. If she does die, my guess is it is either Tyrion or Arya who does her in. Slim chance it is Jon Snow, but he does seem to be realizing that she's not all there.

An even better fate than killing her? Give her back to the Dothraki, with no dragon around to give her power.




Edited by Brian Floyd on 14 May 2019 at 12:11pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14803
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Taking a break from the serious discussion for a moment...





LOL!

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12748
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I think Dany will fulfill her promise of "breaking the wheel", but not in the way she intended. She may or may not end up on the throne, but the Seven Kingdoms will be no more, replaced by a bunch of independent states.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3246
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Through the whole series, Danyís instinctive response to every situation has been violence and a show of force.  Previously, her close advisors have talked her down when possible.  Those advisors are dead.  Tyrionís the only one left, and she doesnít trust him.  Tyrion spent a couple seasons trying to talk her out of doing what she just did, so I donít see how itís out of the blue.

Sheís also been delusionally arrogant about her own person for quite some time.  Mother of dragons and all that.  Folks of that sort are able to rationalize all kinds of things in pursuit of their goals.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14803
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Dany is like Doctor Doom to me: She treats her followers very well... unless they don't accept her rule. Then she will destroy them.





Edited by Matt Hawes on 14 May 2019 at 6:13pm
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 26062
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 5:53pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Wonder if Tyrion found a hole to hide in at the end of the episode. 

Surely, with her killing of all those innocents it wonít be her as the ultimate victor. It should be between her and Sansa. The question is who will Jon side with? His disgust at her rampage seems to suggest it wonít be Daenerys. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3246
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 6:18pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Itís entirely possible that Varys got a raven or two off before burning the second or third note.  In which case, Sansa may already have troops marching south.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rodrigo castellanos
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2012
Location: Uruguay
Posts: 298
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply


Itís entirely possible that Varys got a raven or two off before burning the second or third note.  In which case, Sansa may already have troops marching south.

To do what, get roasted? Doesn't seem very logical to me but hey, with these showrunners anything can happen I guess.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1598
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Steve>>Previously, her close advisors have talked her down when possible.  Those advisors are dead. <<

I'd like to elaborate on that further: following advice from those advisers (particularly recently) had cost her dearly.  In S7, it cost parts of her army, her fleet, etc. for no gain.  When she followed her instincts to be brutal, this actually worked (e.g., Field of Fire) because brutality works.  

It was pointed out just after she reached Dragonstone that from there she could take King's Landing quickly but Tyrion talked her down not because it wouldn't work, but in an effort to avoid what eventually happened.  Her level of frustration was pretty high last season.  This season, the audience was pissed after what happened to Missandei.  Imagine how she would feel.

Killing Them All has worked pretty well for her, compromise less so.
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Christopher Frost
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 24 October 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 320
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Danys' dark turn was foreshadowed throughout the series and given all the frustrations, setbacks and losses she has suffered since arriving in Westeros, it makes sense that she was looking to hurt people.

Emilia Clarke has often been the target of scorn with regards to acting abilities (or possible lack thereof) on the show over the years but the moment when she was overlooking the city and made the decision to destroy it was some fine acting. You could see the emotions at play on her face in that sequence. She went from "Is that all there is?" disappointment to clearly deciding "F--- it! They're all going to pay!" and then going about it.

I was a little surprised that she actually did it but her villain turn didn't come out of nowhere, she's always had that little bit of rage/frustration/desire to hurt those who are against her in her personality and character arc. The only difference between then and now is that she finally reached the point where she doesn't care about the consequences anymore as she will never earn the love of the people in the way she was expecting.

Other thoughts... 

1) Beautifully shot episode. Sure, a few of the greenscreen scenes were pretty obvious but the overall look of the episode was fantastic. 
2) The music, as usual, was outstanding.
3) Drogon unleashed was cool to see. We've only had a few tastes of what a dragon can actually do thus far and it was impressive to really see what he was capable of in terms of destruction.
4) Euron vs. Jaime was a pretty good brawl despite my dislike for him getting to badly wound the Kingslayer in the process.
5) The long awaited showdown between the Clegane brothers delivered. Brutal and a decent goodbye to them both.
6) Arya and The Hounds final scenes together were touching. First, amusing with their arrival at the city and talking a circle around the guard and their later goodbye. When she finally called him by his name, I'll admit I got a little emotional.
7) Poor Varys. I always liked him and what he brought to the show but when you play the game of treason, you risk getting burned (so to speak).
8) Jon finally seeing that he may have backed the wrong side was good as it tied into both the warnings from Varys and sets up the inevitable conflict with Dany that will undoubtedly form the core of the finale.
9) Dany is clearly squarely on Aryas list now and it'll be interesting to see how that is going to play out. Like Death, she is now riding on a pale white horse.
10) Qyburns death was quick, brutal and almost made me laugh as I said "Big mistake!" when he stepped in front of the Mountain.
11) The Tyrion/Jaime goodbye sequence was a nice payoff for their relationship and was very well handled by both the writers and the actors.
12) Cersei & Jaimes final moments together were also well done, though I fully expected Cersei to at least make it to the finale before dying.

So clearly, the finale is going to be about the aftermath of what Dany did and her ultimate comeuppance. I expect that she won't survive the episode so the only real question is who is going to put her down. Jon? Tyrion? Arya? Someone else? I also don't expect the seven kingdoms to remain the seven kingdoms after the dust settles. I think the Iron Islands, Dorne and the North will all claim their independence from the Iron Throne. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 6321
Posted: 14 May 2019 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

I've always thought Emilia Clarke was one of the better actresses on the show. The problem for me has been with how Dany has been written, not Clarke's acting ability.

Am likely dumping HBO once the finale airs, but its not due to the show ending. We've got to cut back on bills, and dumping most, if not all, of the premium channels from our cable is one way to do it. (We'll still have Prime and Netflix.)


Edited by Brian Floyd on 14 May 2019 at 8:49pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3246
Posted: 15 May 2019 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

I think its also important to note that George R.R. Martin, in nearly every interview and Q & A he does, gets asked about Tolkien.  And every time, he says that the biggest difference between him and Tolkien is that his characters are not clearly black and white, heroes and villains.  LotR you've got bad guys, who are all bad all the time.  And you've got good guys who are all good and endure to the end with nobility and stoicism.

Martin has always said that none of his characters are heroes, and none of his characters are villains, they all have good and bad qualities.  And the ones who want power are all a little sociopathic, which is what makes them want it.  The ones who don't are somewhat more moral, but also weak, and usually fall victim to the former.

So this idea that Dany went from 'hero' to 'villain' shows that something has happened in the minds of a lot of viewers that wasn't a part of the intended presentation.  Basically, the characters who were attractive or empathetic like Dany, John Snow, Arya, even Jaime, got slotted by certain people into the 'good guy' category by ignoring all the bad.  The Night King, Cersei, etc. then became the villains, and people seem to have assumed that the endgame of the show would be the 'good guys' teaming up to beat the 'bad guys.'  Also, people were shipping a bunch of couples on the show.

So I think a lot of the disappointment is based on people thinking the show, and the story being told, was something it never was.  Really, its a story of a large group of characters, thrown into a situation of crisis and political intrigue, in which each of them is ultimately destroyed by their weaknesses.  Or sometimes by their strengths.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 32987
Posted: 15 May 2019 at 8:09am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

I believe I benefited greatly from rewatching the entire series before this season.  It allowed me to reconnect with a series that had taken nearly two years between Seasons 7 & 8 and see the groundwork that was laid coming to fruition.  When watched in that manner, many of the issues people have raised with regard to certain character turns appear misplaced or confused to me.  I suspect that when all is said and done, the availability to binge the entire series without waiting a year between seasons (and two between the last) will allow people to judge this season far less harshly than has been seen the last couple of weeks.

For my money, I thought this penultimate episode was fantastic.  A few quibbles to be sure, but on balance it delivered in a way that was both surprising and satisfying.  
Back to Top profile | search
 
Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1598
Posted: 15 May 2019 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

I believe Matt may be on to something.  I got my hair cut yesterday, and my hairstylist just started watching the show. She had never seen the show (genre is not her cup of tea), and went in blind after one of her other clients gave her a "homework assignment" to watch the first three episodes.

Me: "You got hooked after one, right?"

Affirmative. She loves the show and binged the series over the last three weeks and is totally caught up, and she didn't notice anything with pacing shifts, etc., because them going from Winterfell to King's Landing in two episodes was a recent event for her.

I've noticed some backpedaling from some quarters on the internet, that they'd be okay with Dany's "heel turn" if they just fleshed it out more. Like 20 episodes.

Sure, great.  I'd have loved longer seasons, but what would they base it on?  That's the critical question for expansion.  There are already numerous cries of "fanfic" because of D&D adapting an outline instead of a novel and being forced to fill in the blanks.  So making up several times more stuff would make it seem less like a fanfic?  Here, for reference, is how far GRRM is on the last book:  As of yesterday, he hasn't started.  LINK.

D&D wrote the episodes the people who hated the turn like too. So the "they're bad writers and will ruin Star Wars" argument doesn't hold much water with me. Though I did see one commenter saying that adaptation is easy because it's just cut and paste from the books.  Uh huh.

Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14803
Posted: 15 May 2019 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply




Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14803
Posted: 15 May 2019 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

I'm expecting a scene in the final episode like I thought we might have gotten in the battle with The Night King, when Jon was fighting the turned dragon. I think Dany's dragon will try to burn Jon at some point, only to see that its flames has no effect against Jon.

Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Jozef Brandt
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 March 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 2447
Posted: 15 May 2019 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply


Foreshadowing that something is possible is not the same as having legitimate character development. 

How about Jaimie telling Tyrion that he doesn't care about common people.  Considering the fact that he was willing to take the brand "king slayer" and become dishonorable in order to keep the mad king from burning the commoners...this line of dialogue is pretty much character assassination.  (Oh, and later just happens to be strolling on the beach where Euron washes up...uh huh). 

The fact that one dragon was able to flatten King's landing, the Iron Fleet, the entire Golden Company in a matter of minutes, means that all of the previously contrived ways that Dany's forces were eroded over the past two seasons was contrived just to create false tension that she may actually fail.  The Iron Fleet's scorpions are deadly and accurate...until they're not.  The Dragons are vulnerable and killable...until they're not. 

There's a slim chance that two full length seasons may have been able to get here reasonably, but this mad dash to the end has not been very enjoyable to watch. 
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 11 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login