Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
Star Trek
Byrne Robotics > Star Trek << Prev Page of 8 Next >>
Topic: Star Trek: Discovery ~ Season 2 Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Victor Perez
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 80
Posted: 19 March 2019 at 10:43am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Spoilers for "The Daedalus Project"




I have watched it twice, and I must be thick because I just have to be missing or misremembering something... I still just can't get over the fact that the (big bad) threat that drove everything this season might have been discovered/revealed in the following (cumulatively, sub 3-minute ?) unremarkable sequence:

1. Saru uses previously revealed ability that depends on viewscreens transmitting spectra that humans can't see (hey maybe that's comms equipment accessibility and cultural sensitivity engineering Federation-style!) and notices something odd about the last conversation on the viewscreen;

2. Saru announces he is going to investigate a hunch--but without explaining to anyone what the hunch might be (there must be a name in TV Tropes for this);

3. Saru reviews some videos, presumably considers the nature of the probe information that was stolen, and the reports of, er, "sectioned" Section 31 people, and thus deduces, and then announces that:

a) (big bad) was asked to deepfake fake a Spock video by a dodgy Section 31 general or generals, and then

b) (big bad), learning from that request, decided that half-measures are for wimps like Thanos, let's go all the way;

3. Admiral, Captain, bridge crew are like "huh, who knew, it was (big bad) was pulling the string all along.

What am I missing? Will watch again of course.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Victor Perez
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 80
Posted: 19 March 2019 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Re: "Logic extremists" can actually be very helpful, lore-wise, in terms of reconciling the 'asshole Vulcans' of certain eras of Trek with, you know, regular Vulcans.

LOL yes maybe one off the smaller ways that DISCO could actually be tidying up the ST universe (vs whatever YouTube was claiming it was doing). Maybe with James Frain's help we could also learn that before Amanda, Sarek also shacked up with a Romulan and a Klingon.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Victor Perez
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 80
Posted: 19 March 2019 at 10:56am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Re: "*Next week, get ready for the Michael/Spock kissyface you didn't know you wanted.   It's what all good step-brothers and step-sisters do, right?   Sometimes they even get married, like on THE FLASH!   (IOW, I really wish modern television writers would find something else 'edgy' and 'daring' to get people's attention)" 

Rob, wait, what? Where did that come from (in the midst of your helpful deconstruction of Daedalus, the episode and the myth)?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3211
Posted: 19 March 2019 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

This episode was written by the person who is signing on as co-showrunner for season 3.  If she is behind the following line, this show should continue to get better and better.

Spock: I disappoint Sarek, he disappoints me, the sun sets, and a new day begins.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rob Ocelot
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 December 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1085
Posted: 19 March 2019 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

 Victor Perez wrote:
Rob, wait, what? Where did that come from (in the midst of your helpful deconstruction of Daedalus, the episode and the myth)?

Well, it's the one thing I dreaded they were going to do when I heard they were 'introducing' Spock this season.  It's like I already sensed they had thrown this ball around in the writer's room before the season was written.

Let me preface this (possible) rant with the disclaimer that I will retract my bile if it turns out the S/M make-out scenes are a different context than what's being shown in next week's preview -- eg. it could be alternate realities/timelines or it could be something as simple as a Yar/Data situation where neither person is in control of their faculties.  Fair enough to that, and as far as generatiing attention for an upcoming episode I guess it's serving it's function (regardless of positivity or negativity).   It's got my attention, for what it's worth.

Let's just say I don't particularly like the practice of generating drama for dramas sake.   It's a cheap and lazy way of forcing complications into a situation that already has it's share of tension without needing to boil over into something sexual or romantic.   It doesn't add to or enhance our understanding of Spock and his motivations and in the long run it detracts from him as a character in much the same way that the 2009 Abrams film tries to shoehorn Spock and Uhura together as a couple.  It doesn't serve Michael well either, as the only relationships we've seen her in over the past season+ have been both deceptive and unhealthy.   

This is something I think modern television and film writers fail to grasp.  Just because you have two characters of the opposite sex (or same sex) working in close proximity doesn't mean you always have to pair them off.  It's like they can't resist trying different iterations of a small number of characters in romantic ways.  It's like they feel obligated to include this sort of thing because that's what they think their audience expects to happen.   That's not to say that romantic relationships don't happen in these cases but I find most writers lack the chops to pull this off in a subtle and less predictable or cliched way.

Back to STAR TREK.   

I haven't even touched on the whole step-brother/step-sister angle yet, which I think adds a whole other layer of 'ick' to the proceedings and feels like more of a stunt than something that serves the story being told.   They've done variants of this siblings-in-love thing on other shows like THE FLASH and I don't find it at all interesting or clever.   If anything it shows a lack of skill in writing good onscreen familial relationships.   Not every family is broken or has undue amounts of drama, angst or sexual tension.

STAR TREK is no stranger to having Starfleet members pursue sexual or romantic relationships but episodic or loose-arc shows can get away sweeping the negative consequences under the rug if the relationship turns sour or isn't mutual.   Case in point, VOYAGER's "Threshold" stands as probably the most egregious example of rug sweeping -- even if both Paris and Janeway were super-evolved lizards, they mated and had children (that they left behind!).   How the hell do you ignore that and go back to work as Captain and Lieutenant as if it didn't happen?   Considering they may have to spend another 60+ years working together it would make things just a little awkward.  (It's considered one of the worst episodes of TREK ever made for good reason).   DISCOVERY is a completely different kind of show than the STAR TREK that preceeded it -- it's a continuing arc drama with few standalone episodes.   It's a lot harder to shoo away and forget stuff, especially weird and creepy bad stuff that didn't actually need to happen.    It's a lot harder now to shove the bad stuff back into Pandora's Box once it's out in the open.

So, I remain hopeful that next weeks episode doesn't Go There (at least not in the way it's being presented in the teaser).  

I have a feeling I'm going to be disappointed though.


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 20 March 2019 at 4:13am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Victor Perez
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 80
Posted: 20 March 2019 at 4:51am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Re: “So, I remain hopeful that next weeks episode doesn't Go There (at least not in the way it's being presented in the teaser).”

Oh jeez, isn’t that just Burnham and Tyler or is there another teaser I haven’t seen? I looked on YouTube and got a fistful or conspiracy videos and the same short teaser I saw before.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rob Ocelot
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 December 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1085
Posted: 20 March 2019 at 5:22am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Gah.   You're right, it's Tyler! 

Uh, disregard my post above....<cue embarassment emoji>

(In my defence, this show went from having no heavily bearded characters to having two such characters with thick beards and longish dark hair who have a connection to Michael.   I definitely saw what I expected to see in the trailer.   That, and I blame the cough syrup!)

edit: Tyler did have a beard/goatee in Season 1 but it's nowhere near as bushy as it is in this season.




Edited by Rob Ocelot on 20 March 2019 at 5:30am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Victor Perez
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 80
Posted: 20 March 2019 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Rob, thank goodness that’s settled! Because we all know that at the end of this season, Spock trades places with Prime Lorca and becomes Mirror Universe Spock (the beard was right there in front of us all along!)... But nature abhors a vacuum and there must be a Prime Spock... so when Burnham nearly dies saving the universe from the (big bad), Tilly realizes the only way to get her friend back is the same way the doc survived, via the spore dimension.... but there isn’t enough of her left for the spores to do a full rebuild... so they grab a transporter pattern... but the transporter buffer only saves the last pattern, and the last one they have was the “fake” Burnham/Spock transmission created by the Talosians to fool Section 31... and so... she is rebuilt... but, as the spore transport cocoon is cut away...  we finally learn... after ALL this time... that the reason Spock never mentioned his sister... is because all the time we knew him... he WAS his sister! 

Edited by Victor Perez on 20 March 2019 at 11:37am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 1330
Posted: 20 March 2019 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Well I was wondering if Spock was experiencing some sort of precocious 'ponfar' futureflash for a moment there! :^D

Now what I'm thinking is this could all be Borg related, but after the end of the last episode I'm thinking perhaps there won't be any Borg, ever?

I wish they'd made Vina look more like Susan Oliver the episode before, or the clothing, or the Talosians' voices more like they were too. What's the point of that intro when you are going to make everything uber dark and so very different? Talosians that look nothing like old ladies in fancy skin caps, and sound nothing like them either? At least those plants on Talos IV sounded the same.

Another gripe is the pointless use of constantly moving camera angle (ala The Matrix where maybe it had a purpose... so not cutting edge), the lights flashing in the background and outside the ports presumably in space, and light effects in the foreground, and now even bloody dry ice type steam... inside a Starship! Make it stop. I don't care if video game kids need it, they can let go for an hour. Grrr.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Tyler Kloster
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 November 2006
Posts: 147
Posted: 22 March 2019 at 6:43am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

"The Red Angel".

This one has been getting a ton of praise on Twitter, at least from what I've seen, but it was probably one of the weakest of the season for me. Or maybe I just wasn't in much of a Trek mood last night, I don't know.

For one, once we were told early on in the episode who the Red Angel was, it was perfectly obvious to me who it was going to turn out to be instead..not because I'm just that smart, but because I've just consumed too many stories in my life, I guess.

Much like how the show jumped to having Michael and Saru suddenly be best friends earlier this season, it felt like Michael and Ash (I'll call him that to avoid confusion with my own name) skipped a bunch of steps in this episode as well. As with Saru, I can believe they would get there, but I feel like the show skipped a lot of the groundwork in-between.

This is a minor nit, but I will also say that the bit with Captain Leland and his eye near the end is, like the first season's f-bomb, something I personally don't need in Star Trek.

Airiam's funeral was well done, though.

I really have to assume that Pike's Number One is going to play a role in the last couple episodes of the season? I really can't believe there was so much hoopla over the casting of Rebecca Romijn, to the point where they even had her star power in person at the season's premiere party, over 5 minutes of screentime.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Victor Perez
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 80
Posted: 22 March 2019 at 7:29am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Spoilers. First, the best features of this episode: 1) Georgiou vs Tilly, 2) Georgiou vs Stammets, 3) Georgiou er... "vs" Culber and 4) (just because) Pike. Alas, we hardly knew ye.

Worst features. I have never written a bad review of ANYTHING in my life--I just think it's a waste of time and the tendency to show off how smart you think you are infects everything. So just call this venting. The whole thing was disappointing. Ok, I didn't guess the identity of the Red Angel. That should be a good thing, but... maybe it was just because I was just distracted by the self-inflicted torture? (Forum Universe Tyler: to me, *that* was the f-bomb I didn't need. The periscope-needle thing at least fit with the whole torture-porn vibe, but it's not every day that an episode of anything fictional makes me gasp out loud--that's almost...never.)

Meanwhile, everyone is objecting to Spock's plan because of the risk and it just seemed to me--and maybe I just wasn't in a Trek mood either--it just seemed that it wasn't profoundly risky, it was profoundly illogical.  As I watched I felt like if I weren't already so annoyed I could come up with multiple reasons why the plan might not work, starting with Michael of the future would know about this scheme and let it unfold, knowing that Michael would be safe.  

Ok but--"If the Red Angel doesn't come, we all die?" Please. Correct me if I am wrong, but the stakes were only "if Michael dies, *and* Culber can't revive her, *then* she is dead. Like that is going to happen.  This "risk" was further expanded/inflated by Spock and everyone into "if she dies, we *all* die." Except even *that* logic doesn't make sense because we are told the Red Angel is inadvertently *causing* the destruction of everything with the reinfections that come with its incursions.  All in all, the only thing my small brain could come up with at the time was that the plan *only* made sense if Michael *wasn't* the Red Angel. So as I was musing that perhaps the Red Angel was Mirror Michael, right at that moment my best friend, who inadvertently and quite innocently thought I had already finished the episode, sent me a text that spoiled the ending. Oops!!! 

Starting to think the two key themes of this series (both seasons) are:

1) Who am I?/Who am I really?/Who am I today?/Identity: Michael, Tyler, Spock, Ariam, Saru, Lorca, Bridge Crew, Georgiou, Stammets, Culber, Section 31, Pike, Showrunner du jour, etc. You'd think Chris Claremont was the showrunner. Can't wait for the episode where it turns out the communications guy is a Romulan spy. Or maybe Number One is. Maybe Pike is secretly Black Bolt.

2) (To your point) Relationships can flip on an instant. Saru's my buddy again, Tyler is my buddy again, Admiral is my buddy again, Michael is my buddy again, Stammets is my buddy again, etc. Reminds me, I gotta go tell my best friend he is still my buddy.


Edited by Victor Perez on 22 March 2019 at 7:36am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3211
Posted: 22 March 2019 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

The Ash/Michael thing didn't bother me that much.  Those steps were skipped because she was terrified that she was about to die a horrible death.  I fully expect a follow up scene where she pulls back again as now that she's going to live for the foreseeable future, she's still got things to sort through.

I had the opposite reaction to Spock's plan.  To me it only made sense if the angel was Burnham.  Since future Burnham would presumably know about the plan, and the trap, she would only be forced to show up and allow herself to be trapped if she really was going to die.

For me, the big plot hole is how the Red Angel knows when Burnham is in trouble and needs to be saved from death if it isn't Burnham herself going from her own memories.  Some kind of time screen/probe?  How do you know to open a mini-wormhole with that kind of precision?
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Harrison
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 July 2007
Posts: 1026
Posted: 22 March 2019 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

but it was probably one of the weakest of the season for me. 


*******

Same here. Even worse that I predicted Red Angel as Burnham and the plot to trap her made little sense.


Back to Top profile | search
 
Rob Ocelot
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 December 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1085
Posted: 22 March 2019 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

"The Red Angel"

I pretty much agree with everyone's sentiments about this episode.   Kind of meh.   There's a couple of intriguing things that relate back to the broader canvas of STAR TREK though that are worth discussing.

*It's interesting how they still use a religious term to describe the RA, even after it had been demonstrated to be technological.   Worth noting that they've already paid lip service to Arthur C. Clarke earlier in the season and the distinctions between magic and advanced technology.   It's as if the writers had already anticipated that fans would be questioning why Starfleet officers would be talking casually about angels and the like...

*Technobabble time.   The language used to describe the RA's wormholes is (for a change) consistent with other STAR TREK, in particular the descriptions of the stable Bajoran wormhole in DS9.   I've recently been on a DS9 watch-thru and the DS9 writers are very clear that it's virtually impossible for a binary stable (ie both ends of the pipe being fixed) wormhole to naturally exist -- that any such stable wormholes are artifically created by technology.   As they've shown here with the RA, creating even small stable wormholes is difficult.   It's also mentioned that the RA is 'anchored' at one end of the wormhole (presumably the future end of it).

*As on DS9, DISCO also puts forth the interpretation that a scientific versus spritual explanation for what are events beyond your comprehension or high technology that is impossible to understand is merely a matter of perspective.   Prophets or advanced aliens that exist outside of time?   An angel who performs miracles or a time traveller in a fancy suit?   Two sides of the same coin.

*Time crystals?   What the hell?   It's basically the STAR TREK equivalent of magic stones or magic beans.   They sound suspiciously similar to the Bajoran 'Tears of the Prophets' orbs, one of which allowed time travel (and coincidentally did travel to the TOS era). 

*It's interseting Starfleet was worried the Klingons would try to abuse time travel for conquest.   Makes you wonder what the Romulans were up to for a hundred+ years?   Still doesn't explain why the tech of the RA suit is so advanced and where it came from.   This might be a bit of a chicken and egg scenario.

*Does this not seem like it's a bookend to the TCW threads that were started in ENTERPRISE?   Again, we have future players trying to muck with the past and a small number of 'good' time travellers trying to set things right.

*What Control (or more correctly, the future malevolent incarnation of Control) is trying to do here is very similar to what happened the Borg, except by accident.   Control wants to manipulate the past to it can become supremely powerful (and thus cheat the future).   The Borg's defeat in FIRST CONTACT inadvertantly left their technology in the past, which then became activated and rejoined the Collective with vital information about the future and the Federation....

*From what I can gather, there are two timelines shown here that would be compatible with TOS as we first viewed it:

1) Michael's parents are not killed by Klingons, Michael is not orhpaned and is not adopted by Sarek and Amanda.   The Klingon war starts for other reasons and lasts longer than a year.   Spock never mentions Michael because he never met her.   Michael may not have ever joined Starfleet.

2) Michael is orphaned but is killed by a wild animal when she runs away from Sarek's houshold.   Again, the Klingon war starts for other reasons and Spock never mentions his step-sister because there was no need to mention her.   Much like Sybok, Spock only volunteers the information about his half-sibling if there's a logical reason to, and in the case of Michael there was never a relevant point to mention her.

*I get that feeling that as the RA tries to fix things in the timeline that other undesirable outcomes pop up making the whole exercise a nearly impossible puzzle that could never be fully solved.   eg, save a whole planet from being destoyed by the evil AI's from the future but somewhere else Michael ends up getting killed when she originally didn't die.  The RA then goes and saves Michael and something else gets thrown out of whack.   It's similar to the Krenim repeatedly attempting to fix their timeline in "Year of Hell" (VOY).

*Spock calling out Michael's need to be the center of everything and responsible for all the goings-on seems almost like a meta-commentary on how Michael was written in the first season.  He's right though, her ability to be the alpha and omega of every goings on in this series (and to feel supremely guiltly and responsible for them as well) is like a superpower.   It's an interesting observation because Spock ended up becoming a writer's darling much like Michael -- 'Super Spock' has done everything from time traveling to coming back from the dead.   Coincidentally, Michael does both of these things in this very episode.

*I have a love/hate relationship with Georgiou.   The big problem with the Mirror Universe characters is they were really only meant to exist for one episode, purely as a contrast to our main characters.   They weren't conceived to be continuing characters and when do try to write them like this it becomes harder to find interesting things for them to do other than be the only smartass in the room and try to be the center of attention by chewing the scenery.   The writers and actors love these characters because they aren't the same stodgy old Starfleet officers that feel like work to write and portray.   Goergiou is basically the STAR TREK equivalent of a court jester or Deadpool, and while they are fascinating at first they tend to become one or two-trick ponies very quickly.   Characters like this are like a potent spice -- a little goes a long way and they tend to overuse Georgiou in ways that sort of annoy me.   Some better examples of non-Starfleet characters with different motives and perspectives that make things more interesting without going overboard are Quark and Garak.   The DISCO writers could learn a lot by watching DS9, I think.

*While it was great to see Georgiou put Tilly (and well, everyone) in their place that scene seemed unnecessary to me for a whole host of reasons.   It basically brought a strategic technical meeting to a grinding halt so people could argue about their sexuality/sexual preferences.  Who the hell does that?   Moreover, why are we to assume the word 'gay' would still have the same meaning 200 years in the future, when 100 years before our time the word had an entirely different connotation (well, and the fact that the characters are technically speaking Federation Common through a universal translator and not English).   It kind of does a disservice to Culver and Stammets by highlighting they are a gay couple with issues when it's more likely by that time in the future they would just be a couple having issues, regardless of them being gay, straight, interractial, or interspecies.   A couple, just like any other two beings who want to spend a significant amount of their free time together.   That they are two men should be immaterial.   The whole scene felt like it was shoved in there for the audiences benefit rather than the characters.

*I still don't get what the deal was with Leland getting his eye poked out.   I need to watch this again.   

*Yeah, everyone standing around watching Michael suffer seemed really creepy and sick.


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 22 March 2019 at 6:24pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Victor Perez
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 80
Posted: 22 March 2019 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

“Spock calling out Michael's need to be the center of everything and responsible for all the goings-on seems almost like a meta-commentary on how Michael was written in the first season. “

Well said, thought same on second viewing but could not articulate.

Re “gay” — excellent point.

Rob, fantastic analysis. Looking forward to your take on Perpetual Infinity or whatever it will be called.


Back to Top profile | search
 
Victor Perez
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 November 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 80
Posted: 22 March 2019 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Oh yeah, Time Crystal. That’s insulting. When I want to watch Infinity War, or Doctor Who, that is what I will watch. Stupid lazy name.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Harrison
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 July 2007
Posts: 1026
Posted: 23 March 2019 at 12:40am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Rob Ocelot writes everything I think about but don't post.

Well said sir. 


And I keep thinking this is all leading up to how do we get the Borg on the show

Borg Soup ingredients:

Trans warp drive substitute:: check 
magic mushroom drive

Big Borg brain: check
Control is sentient AI capable of murder and what not wanting to expand his knowledge and cousin V'ger isn't sharing 

The Borg Queen needs an origin:  check
Araim human turned mostly machine after nearly dying "touched" by a supreme AI conscience 

We need a ship:check

Discovery w Ariam's "memories" dumped into the Disco computer sure.... memories pressed between the pages of my mind meanwhile Control is out there somewhere ... 

Time travel: check
 
After Red Angel saves the day off loading the crew but dies cuz well after her Archangel update from Apocalypse (shit X-Factor flashback...focus man)   but couldn't gain control of the ship back Discovery now powered by time crystals and magic mushrooms off it goes to the ....

Delta Quadrant: check

Discovery pops itself into the Delta Quadrant via the magic mushrooms and time Crystal puts it in the past somewhere

shit we need a spore navigator guy cant be a space elephant and a gay guy been there done that,,,,we are gonna need something else more shocking I'm thinking Sybock he mind melds with the fungus "give me your pain Discovery" 

Cubes: check
Borg Queen decides Cubes are very in this year what year doesn't matter we are in the past 

Next Season new ship new captain and Q drops by to explain Michael's real story all on ST: Fringe

I'm done after this season wraps ... Anson Mount will sorely be missed since he only signed for one season. This episode made me realize he is the only reason I'm watching. Same reason I watched Hell on Wheels he's an incredible actor.

He would make great Indiana Jones 







Back to Top profile | search
 
Rob Ocelot
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 December 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1085
Posted: 23 March 2019 at 5:52am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

One of the first season threads that I think is going to be picked up this season and next -- and one that might not play out as originally concieved is the meaning of certain names.

Both Michael and Gabriel are biblical names with a whole host of connotations.   The wiki pages for both "Archangel Michael" and "Archangel Gabriel" are chock full of stuff, so much info (some of it contradictory) that you'd have a harder time not connecting it to STAR TREK and other science fiction in some way.  

Some interesting highlights that I think might be relevant to DISCO (I've clipped these verbatim out of the wiki so everything comes over, including the fonts and footnote citations)

*Michael translates literally into "He who is like God".   Nuff said, really.

*Michael is descibed in the Eastern Orthodoxy as a taxiarch:


 QUOTE:
Taxiarch, the anglicised form of taxiarchos or taxiarchēs (Greekταξίαρχος or ταξιάρχης) is used in the Greek language to mean "brigadier". The term derives from táxis, "order", in military context "an ordered formation". In turn, the rank has given rise to the Greek term for brigadetaxiarchia. In Greek Orthodox Church usage, the term is also applied to the Archangels Michael and Gabriel, as leaders of the heavenly host, and several locations in Greece are named after them.


 QUOTE:
According to Jewish mythology, in the Garden of Eden there is a tree of life or the "tree of souls"[13] that blossoms and produces new souls, which fall into the Guf, the Treasury of Souls. Gabriel reaches into the treasury and takes out the first soul that comes into his hand. Then Lailah, the Angel of Conception, watches over the embryo until it is born

*I wouldn't be surprised if they try to equate the fungus network with the tree of souls.   Coincidentally, the last time we saw Lorca he was entering the network (the hard way).  The whole plucking of souls, angel of conception watching over the embryo also sounds similar to Dr Culver's resurrection.



 QUOTE:
When Enoch asked who the four figures were that he had seen: "And he said to me: 'This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.' And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days." (Enoch 40:9)

*Long-suffering and merciful Michael describes our main character pretty well (all of it self-imposed).   Gabriel being "set over all the powers" (ie a powerbroker or power monger) also could describe Lorca.


Some other choice stuff:


 QUOTE:
The Book of Revelation (12:7-9) describes a war in heaven in which Michael, being stronger, defeats Satan.[12] After the conflict, Satan is thrown to earth along with the fallen angels, where he ("that ancient serpent called the devil") still tries to "lead the whole world astray".[12]

*I can't help but equate the fallen angels and ancient serpents with once-thought-defeated time travelling AIs who end up concealing themselves and laying dormant, occasionally waking up to tempt unwary humans with promises of power.


 QUOTE:
Michael (Arabic: ميخائيل Mīkhā‘īl, ميكائيل Mīkā‘īl ), is one of the two archangels mentioned in the Quran, alongside Jibrail (Gabriel). In the Quran, Michael is mentioned once only, in Sura 2:98: "Whoever is an enemy to God, and His angels and His messengers, and Jibrail and Mikhail! Then, God (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers."[16]



 QUOTE:
The Eastern Orthodox accord Michael the title "Archistrategos", or "Supreme Commander of the Heavenly Hosts".[42] The Eastern Orthodox pray to their guardian angels and above all to Michael and Gabriel.[43]


 QUOTE:
In Islam, Michael, also spelt Mika'il, is one of the archangels and said to be responsible for the forces of nature.[77]

The Qur'an mentions Michael together with Gabriel in the sura Al-Baqara:

Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael, – Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

— Quran, chapter 2 (Al-Baqara) verses 97–98[78]


 QUOTE:
Contrary to Christian tradition, Islamic traditions depict Gabriel as the warring angel, instead of Michael. Accordingly he aided Muhammed to overcome his adversaries, significantly during the Battle of Badr and against a demon during the Mi'raj.[45][46] Further, similar to Gabriel in Judaism, Gabriel is also an angel responsible for the acts of destruction of people God wants to be annihilated.[47]





Edited by Rob Ocelot on 23 March 2019 at 6:01am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
John Harrison
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 July 2007
Posts: 1026
Posted: 23 March 2019 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

I considered some of the religious themes after the church episode Rob I don't think Disco is that deep and to be honest plus DS9 covered all of that w the Emissary stuff w Sisko.







Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 32963
Posted: 24 March 2019 at 8:23pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Was at the PaleyFest DISCOVERY event today and it was confirmed (if it needed to be at all by now) that the series takes place in the Prime timeline.  It wasn't even a question from an audience member (with the Q&A portion of the fest having been sidelined for all series this year for some reason) but was said as an off-handed comment by Ethan Peck in response to whether he studied Leonard Nimoy and Zachary Quinto as research for "Spock".  

Great event, BTW.  The cast really loves working together and they have incredible respect for Sonequa Martin-Green who, in turn, said it was a group effort.  Amazing to see the amount of heart for all concerned with this project.  

It was also revealed that Alex Kurtzman was at Patrick Stewart's home just yesterday to read the pilot episode of PICARD and it nearly brought Kurtzman to tears.  That's all that was said about that upcoming project, but it was enough to get me excited all over again.  That's saying a lot as I'm not a huge fan of TNG. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 32963
Posted: 24 March 2019 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

FYI if you want to watch the event, you can stream it here for $1.99.  I'd highly recommend the second half of that event, the TWILIGHT ZONE preview that's also just a $1.99 to rent.  Both were excellent.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rob Ocelot
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 December 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1085
Posted: 24 March 2019 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

A couple more observations for "The Red Angel":

*Why are they having a full military funeral for a fallen colleague in the middle of a mission?  All sentient life is going to die but first we're going to stop everything and talk about our feelings for a character the audience has zero emotional investment in.   They then juxtapose that character's autopsy and memory wipe with her emotionally-hollow funeral just to be even more hypocritical.   They 'buried' Spock after Kahn was no longer a threat.  This time-wasting bullshit could have waited, IMO.

*I'm still picking at the whole 'look at the gay couple with problems' scab in the middle of the episode.   I'm reminded of a first season episode of RED DWARF where hologram Rimmer tries to pass himself off as Lister's love interest Kochanski (because Rimmer thinks that if it came down to it Lister would erase his program and keep hers).   Rimmer screws up and says something very un-Kochanski like, then tries to salvage the situation by saying "I think I must be having a woman's period" which gives the game away completely.  The point is Rimmer stupidly says something he thinks a woman would say.   The whole exchange between Georgiou, Stammets and Culver comes off with the same vibe -- that someone in the writer's room thinks this is how gay/pansexual/omnisexual people would talk about their sexuality in the future.   It sticks out like a sore thumb.   The better example (IMO) is to just show a same sex couple as a normal and accepted thing and no one makes a big deal about it.   Isn't that the future we all want to be in?

*While DISCOVERY spins it's wheels over showing same-sex marriage on TV (hey writer's room, welcome to five years ago!) it seems to be missing out on the more timely subject of transhumanism:  

We are on the cusp of a revolution in genetic and cybernetic augmentation and the next twenty or thirty years are going muddy the waters over just what constitutes a human being.   STAR TREK depicts a Federation where genetic augmentation is forbidden and banned -- everyone is equally mediocre with only their natural 'gifts' to distinguish them from everyone else.   Anyone caught cheating is branded a criminal and loses a significant portion of their rights as a Federation citizen.   They were all set to throw both Julian Bashir and his Father in prison -- it didn't seem to matter that Julian was an unknowing and innocent participant.  Poor Bashir avoided prison but will probably be watched like a hawk by Federation Security until the day he dies (just in case he tries to pull a Kahn), which is just about as bad as being in prison.   So much for all Federation citizens being equal.  

Cybernetic augmentation seems to be somewhat common in DISCO's pre-TOS time period but almost unheard of a century later, which makes me wonder if we'll see the beginnings of a ban similar to the one on genetic augmentation.  Geordi seems to be the lone exception, and the reaction to his visor seems to be that of an oddity rather than something commonplace in the 23rd century.  Perhaps medically-necessary augmentations are considered acceptable but as we've seen with Ariam and Geordi their augemented technology is a Security Chief's worst nightmare for trojan horse-style attacks.   We sadly know less about Detmer than we do Ariam but her comments about acceptance (both for herself and from her peers) lead me to believe there's some unspoken tension between cybernetic and unaugmented crewmembers.  Even Tilly ignorantly refers to Ariam as being 'part robot' which seemed amazingly insensitive given the IDIC principles that most Starfleet members spout on about.  Perhaps medically-necessary augmentation is allowed but augments are barred from joining Starfleet?   I'd really like to see something more concrete from DISCO on this subject, and in the very least can we at least get to know Detmer's story?

Meanwhile, the Federation's enemies like the Klingons have no qualms about using augmentations if it gives them an edge in battle -- as Tyler's comment about time travel reveals.  DISCO season 1 showed us Klingons able to survive in vacuums and other extreme environments  The augments arc in ENTERPRISE showed them more than willing to experiment on their own species to create better soldiers (with disasterous results).   Ironically the Klingons seem to have a more flexible and broad concept of just what it means to be a Klingon than humans -- we've seen examples of genetically non-related conquered species referred to as 'Klingons' if they are willing to fight and die for the Empire.  You can sure as bet the Romulans have been up to no good on the augmentation front as well.

*I still think that watching Michael burn and suffocate to death was one of the most brutal things I've seen on television, right up there with Season 1 of SPOOKS (a woman having her face shoved in a deep fryer -- hard to believe that was almost 15 years ago).  That it happened on STAR TREK while other characers watched makes it even more squidgy.   We also got treated to Leland getting his eye poked out.   Makes TOS and TNG seem like happy sing-a-longs.   Note: this is why the words 'edgy' and 'STAR TREK' should never be in the same sentence.

*So the Red Herring... er Angel has the bio-data of Michael but it's actually... <facepalm>.

*Someone on another site pointed out that Lt. Nilsson (who takes Ariam's bridge position) is played by Sara Mitich, who was Ariam under all that makeup and hardware in Season 1.   Weird.


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 25 March 2019 at 10:25am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 32963
Posted: 24 March 2019 at 11:50pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Re: "The Daedalus Project".  Just watched it today.  Although I kinda, sorta understand the feeling that Ariam's death was unearned, it doesn't bother me at all.  It's the same reaction we get to the death in WRATH OF KHAN to the kid who died in engineering, the one in the director's cut (and was aired on network television in the 80s), where we discover he was Scotty's nephew.  I'm OK with the crew reacting to a death of a valued member that hasn't been explored and dissected via multiple episodes.  Ariam was, in fact, a crew member who I was always curious about and was waiting to discover her story.  When we did this episode, I was affected by it without having to have a multipart story arc centering around her.  Personally, I thought they did a great job of defining her in this episode and giving her a purpose while also pulling the rug out from under her.  YMMV.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 32963
Posted: 25 March 2019 at 1:06am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

That bit about why Enterprise wasn't drawn into the Klingon conflict last season was priceless and why I think Anson Mount deserves his own series as Pike.  A brilliant bit of character building and a great moment all the way 'round.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 25934
Posted: 25 March 2019 at 5:03am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Agreed. 
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 8 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login