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Ted Downum
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Posted: 14 March 2019 at 11:02am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Matt Reed: "...I preferred the real life scarred version of Vena in "The Cage" to the semi-updated version in DISCOVERY."

*****

I agree, Matt...it surprised me a little that the look of the real Vina got softened up a bit from the original version.

Melissa George was terrific, though. I loved the scenes with Vina and Pike.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 14 March 2019 at 11:34am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

To me the great success of last week's episode was that while they were mining The Cage and Menagerie for significance, the episode that resulted added to both of those stories, rather than taking away.  Pretty stark contrast to, for example, Into Darkness.
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 14 March 2019 at 11:36am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

And this is casting:


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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 14 March 2019 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I myself liken the psychological state of fans promoting videos like the one Rick linked to (almost as if he had an agenda of some sort) to those of Germans who sided with the Nazis just on the banking issues. ONLY on the banking issues. The banks were all messed up. Certainly they didn't agree with the Nazis, or you know... "Them" on everything. But the banks? Those did need fixing. And the party seeking power, who just happened to be the... y'know, "Them," were going to fix the banks. Really, the only dog these folks had in this fight were the banks, but on that issue the, um, you know, "Them..." They had these good German people's support all the way.

That certainly didn't make those people "Them," did it? It made them merely... "Them" adjacent.

Make no mistake, Rick, "They" thank you for your assistance in promoting Their agenda. You're a good little promoter.

__________________________________


Ass-u-me much Brian? I posted that link because I have been hearing complaints from Star Trek fans about both JJ Abrams ST and STD. I thought that since the guy who was being interviewed in the video that I posted had worked on Star Trek in the past that he might have offered some insight into why they made some of the creative decisions they did.

OMT, I'm Black and I don't take kindly to being painted as a sympathizer with racists/Nazis.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 14 March 2019 at 9:22pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Rob Burnett remains a distinct disappointment to me. I really enjoyed the independent film FREE ENTERPRISE that he wrote and directed with Mark A. Altman, and to have that guy go down the conspiracy well and begin playing to the echo-chamber inhabitants there at the bottom is somewhat sad. 

And he hasn't actually worked on Star Trek itself. He's produced a number of DVD special features on multiple discs, but that's all been done after-the-fact. He is not and has not been in the room when decisions were being made. 

He's a frequent guest on the INGLORIOUS TREKSPERTS podcast and the crew there has to just as frequently shut him down from going off on anti-Discovery rants since A.) they want to keep the discussion light and positive and B.) because they have a sister podcast promoting the show. 

I didn't say you sympathized with racists and Nazis, btw. I said you held views that represented many of their positions and were apparently okay with supporting their side of the argument at least that far. 

Just because you agree with them on many points doesn't necessarily mean you sympathize with them entirely. 

If an Alt-Right group checked in here, would they feel they need to post in counter-point to the discussion taking place, or could they reasonably assume you, Kirkman, Sofer, Woods, and "Pork Rinds" Churay have this front in the "culture wars" covered?


Edited by Brian Hague on 14 March 2019 at 9:26pm
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John Harrison
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Posted: 14 March 2019 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply


So many little moments between the crew that I enjoyed but why in God's name is the security chief skulking in the corner when she can clearly see Ariel (sp?) is not doing something kosher.

 I must have missed something but I couldn't understand why they didn't just beam her out 

I really didn't like fight choreography way too Matrix-ish

I did start to wonder if we are seeing the seeds of what will become the Borg.

Nitpicks aside a really solid episode 



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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 14 March 2019 at 10:51pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I didn't say you sympathized with racists and Nazis, btw. I said you held views that represented many of their positions and were apparently okay with supporting their side of the argument at least that far.

Just because you agree with them on many points doesn't necessarily mean you sympathize with them entirely.

If an Alt-Right group checked in here, would they feel they need to post in counter-point to the discussion taking place, or could they reasonably assume you, Kirkman, Sofer, Woods, and "Pork Rinds" Churay have this front in the "culture wars" covered?

______________________________


There you go assuming again Brian. Where in any of my posts did I say or imply that I represent,support,or agree with their side of the argument and with many of their points (which, BTW, is you basically saying that I sympathize with Nazis and racists)? Hell, I haven't even said anything negative about STD. So again, before you accuse someone of agreeing with Nazis and racists, make sure you have proof and all of the facts.
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Tyler Kloster
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Posted: 15 March 2019 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I must have missed something but I couldn't understand why they didn't just beam her out.
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I wondered that too, John, and assumed there must have been a line of dialogue or something that I missed that said they couldn't do so. Otherwise, it seems like a gigantic gaffe, because the transporter would have solved most of the issues in the climax, like beaming the security chief to safety or beaming Airiam off the ship and to the brig.

And I have to believe that director Jonathan Frakes would have caught such a gaffe, so maybe there was indeed something that said the transporters wouldn't work in the moment. I'll look for it when I rewatch the episode this weekend.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 15 March 2019 at 9:00pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

And this is casting:

<Picture of Jeffrey Hunter and Anson Mount side-by-side>

Not just in the looks.   It's the temperment and inflection that's down pat too.

On another note, I'm really warming to Ethan Peck's Spock.  His advice to Stammets was spot on.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 15 March 2019 at 9:27pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

"If Memory Serves"

Just imagine we got something like this in Season 1...

*I'm so glad they went with direct flashbacks from "The Cage" and not a recreation with a modern cast.   It would have rung quite hollow in an episode whose core theme was how memories define a person to cheat the audience out of a true flashback.   Bravo to the DISCOVERY production team for having the balls to do this.

*Is this the first time in the STAR TREK narrative that "The Cage" itself is addressed as a canon episode?  Yes, "The Menagerie" acknowledges the events but that's treated as a flashback rather than an actual episode.  I suppose "The Cage" being shown as TOS Episode #80 in the 1990s syndication packages is just as significant.

*I thought the new Talosian makeup looked good but I felt they looked too masculine and too Berman-era headpiece-of-the-week.   Having women play the Talosians in "The Cage" not only made their gender ambiguous but made their body language and posture seem alien -- so IMO it was a bit of a misstep to not incorporate this aspect.   Everything else about Talos IV though was very complimentary to the original pilot.

*They went out of their way to either find a gravel pit north of Toronto to act as Talos IV or they used a virtual set to make Talos IV look exactly like the kind of gravel pit a location scout from the 1960s would think looked like an alien planet.  However they did it, it was a brilliant choice.

*It's interesting that there's a starbase so close to 'restricted space' Talos IV now.   This was beyond the edge of mapped space only three years before, now it's got the equivalent of a service station and a McDonald's across the street.    Could the Federation be expanding THAT fast, keeping in mind we just came out of a year-long war?

*Just as I was about to say "Aren't they leaving a shuttle on Talos IV?"... well.    Section 31, man... the writers most hate you, because they are writing you D-U-M-B with a capital DUMB!   No wonder no one's heard of you 100 years later.

*Was it just me or did the shuttle have TOS-style switch controls?
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 16 March 2019 at 8:50am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

It's interesting that there's a starbase so close to 'restricted space' Talos IV now.
------------------------------------------
That wasn't just any starbase.  Starbase 11 is the starbase from Menagerie.  I don't know how close it is, but based on Menagerie, it would be the closest one.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 16 March 2019 at 9:59am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

That wasn't just any starbase.  Starbase 11 is the starbase from Menagerie.  I don't know how close it is, but based on Menagerie, it would be the closest one.

Good catch, I missed that one.  In this episode they say Starbase 11 is 2LY away from Talos IV. 
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 16 March 2019 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Couple more points about "If Memory Serves":

*There's some interesting symmetry with Vina and Hugh's respective situations.   Vina chooses to live with the memories of the person she was but she's still trapped in her original body.  Hugh has a brand new body but feels trapped by the memories of the person he was and disconnected from the person he's supposed to be now.

*Some have stated that Starfleet medical should be able to take Vina and repair her but I think they've missed a very important plot point -- Vina chooses to remain on Talos IV.   Yes, she could leave the planet and go to a Starfleet medical facility but then she'd have to confront the reality of her present broken body and actually work towards recovery and rehabilitation.   On Talos IV she instantly gets what she needs (or what she thinks she needs, including a simulcram of Pike) so there's no incentive for her to leave.   She's addicted to the illusions the Talosians provide for her and they are happy to give her what she wants, perhaps out of guilt.   For Vina to truly leave Talos IV she has to turn her back on a path of least resistance and embrace a harder road where the outcome isn't certain.  

*Further to the above point, the Talosians form of 'payment' creepily felt like it was some sort of drug deal, so I do think the analogy of Vina being an addict fits well.

*Talosian illusions are so much like reality that it fools both sensors and computers in addition to organic minds.   The shuttle's computer thought it was in danger.   That's pretty powerful -- but also in line with the abilities displayed by the Talosians in "The Cage".

*One point I didn't like was the DISCO bridge crew instantly all seemed to know about Talos IV being a 'no go' zone in much the same way you or I know that the Korean DMZ is a forbidden place.   Now, if they tried to use the navi computers and were locked out of going to Talos IV I think that would have worked better.   In yet another Section-31-is-written-DUMB twist the leader of a covert intelligence ship knew less about Talos IV than your average crewmember on DISCO.  

*On my first viewing I wondered why didn't the Talosians just use the same black hole trick they used on the shuttle but it dawned on me that they were trying to fool two people (three if you count the shuttle) and the illusion was immense and almost overpowering.   Now you have two starships chock full of people and sensors and there's no way they would have been able to pull off something like that and make it convincing to the Section 31 ship while tipping off DISCO that it's just an illusion and they aren't in danger.   This is borne out by how lame their illusion of Spock and Michael was and how they couldn't even interact with the illusion as the Sec. 31 ship was warping away.

*I suspect Ethan Peck's Spock wears a beard to disguise that he doesn't really resemble Nimoy all that much.   They even pay lip service to the beard in the narrative (again, the entire episode is about memories and illusions, so it's fitting).   There's also the connotations to Mirror Spock... Hmmm.

*I have problems with that mess hall fight mostly because it seems like it was stuck in there to add some action to what was a mostly cerebral, talky episode.   Ironically, this same criticism was originally levelled at "The Cage" and why the second STAR TREK pilot had a better mix of story and action   

*What really bugged me about the fight was that the ranking officer in the room (Saru) chose to let it continue and no bridge officer stepped up to do the right thing.   You can see Tilly wanting to say something but she defers to Saru -- she has a lot to learn about being a Starfleet Captain, I'm afraid!   All in all, pretty disgraceful behavior that in no way is mitigated by the lip service debrief between Saru and Pike afterward.  Funny enough, if Saru had done the right thing then Culver and Tyler would have been disciplined and confined to quarters, meaning that Tyler would have had an airtight alibi about the mysterious communications.   Again, this stupid fight being jammed into the plot actually messes up the A story in stupid ways.

*I get the feeling they are going to have Culver and Tyler come to terms with their animosity but the writers are going to push it in 'edgy' inorganic ways.   I wouldn't be at all surpised if the characters end up friends or even a couple in later seasons.  That mess hall fight was staged more like a Klingon mating ritual than an actual fistcuffs.

*So Michael hurt Spock because she was mean and racist to him (yes, it had an ulterior motive)?   That's it?   It does give a little more colour to why Spock got so upset with Kirk's taunting in "This Side of Paradise".   Hey, at least it wasn't Michael/Spock kissyface.  <Spoiler, I spoke too soon... just saw the preview for next week's episode.   Ugh.>

*Is this the first time we've seen autonomous 'clean up' drones on STAR TREK?  

<Spoiler for the next episode, but I think autonomous AIs are the big bad for this series, sort of an analogy to the AI driven cars and devices we're slowly filling our world with.   It's actually quite disturbing that the Starfleet Admirality relies on a data crunching AI for making their 'big' decisions -- perhaps this is why there's resistence from nuts-and-bolts starship Captains like Kirk to Daystrom's Multitronic M-5 system in "The Ultimate Computer".  I missed the brief mention of Control in this episode the first time around but after seeing the subsequent episode I'm pretty much conviced it's a future Section 31 headed by corrupt AIs that's causing all the trouble.   Whether that's connected to the Borg is up for debate, but the upgraded probe from the previous episode seemed to be only interested in 23rd century technology and not the humans on board... which is suspiciously like the iteration of the Borg we saw in their very first TNG appearance> 


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 16 March 2019 at 5:13pm
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 16 March 2019 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

My suspicion is that you're right about runaway AI.  It would make sense for Starfleet's admiralty, facing some future war or other crisis, to feed it to the computer to solve, and the computer decides the way to lasting peace is to wipe out all sentient life.
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 16 March 2019 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Brian re: "Victor, you should see the draft that didn't get posted. :-)

Ha, yeah, been there, done that! :-)
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 16 March 2019 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Re: *Talosian illusions are so much like reality that it fools both sensors and computers in addition to organic minds.   The shuttle's computer thought it was in danger.   That's pretty powerful -- but also in line with the abilities displayed by the Talosians in "The Cage"."

I was thinking that their minds were being tricked into believing sensor readings that didn't exist (and thus also the computer's voice was an illusion), rather than the sensors themselves were being tricked. 

Meanwhile, have just seen Deadalus (sp) and there is much to discuss. Need to watch again, but two comments: 1) [spoiler free] amazing that the writers either wittingly or unwittingly touched a huge timely social/technological issue that is creeping our way and has not hit mainstream discussion yet. That is science fiction at its best. 2) [virtually spoiler free] I almost never have a problem with anything on this show because I am just so happy it exists. But... from time to time there are just disconnects between beats where I just have to wonder if they edited something out or re-edited on the fly... but in this one, it felt like the "reveal" was actually pasted onto the script. I have to watch it three times to make sure I wasn't missing something. In a few lines of dialogue they went from being clueless to being completely in the know. I do wonder if this has to do with whatever patches were needed to turn this from an anthology arc to a continuing series. If any of that story is true. :) 
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 17 March 2019 at 2:20am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

 Rob Ocelot wrote:
*Further to the above point, the Talosians form of 'payment' creepily felt like it was some sort of drug deal, so I do think the analogy of Vina being an addict fits well.

I don't think of it as creepy so much as being a symbiotic relationship.  Both get something from the other in exchange for something else.  The Talosians get a constant source of memory and emotion in exchange for making a single human feel whole again.  Vena gets to live her fantasy life as a perfect human in exchange for the rather invasive techniques of the Talosians.  Both parties get what they want, which may work toward your "addict" theory, but I think it's more symbiotic than addictive.  Neither feels like an addict to me, but rather filling a need that the other can supply.
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Matt Reed
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 Victor Perez wrote:
 I have to watch it three times to make sure I wasn't missing something. In a few lines of dialogue they went from being clueless to being completely in the know. I do wonder if this has to do with whatever patches were needed to turn this from an anthology arc to a continuing series. If any of that story is true.

Not this deep into the second season.  Season 1 didn't suffer from being previously conceived as an anthology to my mind, but given it's success (Kirkman's of the world be damned) that certainly wouldn't have bled this deep into the second season.  
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Rob Ocelot
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"The Daedalus Project"

Wow.  What a hot mess of sloppy and inconsistent writing.  A real letdown after the stunning episode last week.

*STAR TREK has never been subtle when it evokes names from Greek or Roman mythology, has it?    

*In this case "Daedalus" refers to the creation of a clever invention (for yourself or others) without regard to the long term negative consequences.   The obvious parallels are the Labyrinth and the Minotaur -- and going with our rampant AI analogy they represent the infrastructure/hardware (the maze) and the software (the monster).   The combination of the two components creates a menace that is nearly impossible to eradicate.   There's also the story of Daedalus giving Icarus a set of wings he invented, but either fails to tell his son of the pitfalls of the device or the end user ignores the warnings on the misuse of the technology.    Daedalus is also uncle to Talos, another inventor.   Whether that has any connection to name of the planet we were just at last week remains to be seen.

*This episode rings a bit hollow for me.   A crew member we never got to know at all dies, and well... I don't feel anything because they decide to cram all of that character development that should have happened in the first season into her death episode.   It felt cheap and forced.   No amount of fake girl bonding video footage can backfill a story that was never there in the first place.   A shame, because the audience was truly curious about these other bridge crew characters who were all just window dressing during that rotten first season.

*It's occured to me that we see very few cybernetically enhanced individuals in Starfleet after this period (and well into the TNG era).   Much like genetic augmentation being forbidden after the Eugenics Wars I wonder if this series shows the beginning of a ban on cybernetic enhancement/augmentation that lasted more than a century.   Ironically, this kind of ban may inadvertantly have made the Federation unprepared for the likes of the Borg and possibly the Breen.

*A return to the upside-down camera angles.   Enough already.   Filmmaking tip #15: Your audience probably wants to keep their lunch.   I'm shocked Frakes directed this episode as he's usually a little more conservative in his approach to television.   Perhaps these crazy swooping camera angles are some sort of 'house style' and Frakes is just going with the flow?

*How is Michael able to walk unannounced into a private confidential conversation between an Admiral and another officer?   Wouldn't the door be locked?   If I was an Admiral and someone did that I'd be pissed off.

*So we have solid holo-characters, who can function outside of a holodeck or nearby emitters in the 23rd century?   The tech wasn't even that advanced in VOYAGER.   Why not just set this series in the post-NEMESIS era and be done with it?

*Is this the first time STAR TREK has depicted the main viewscreen showing something other than visible light?  (and not translating things outside the visible light spectrum into something regular humans can see -- when someone requrests the computer to do it).   That's a really useful feature that would have ended quite a few episodes of other STAR TREK series in about three minutes -- if they had known they were talking to robots/holograms/aliens of a different biology posing as humans.   Saru (First Officer and sometimes-acting Captain) should have piped up immediately that there was something 'off' about the Sec 31 Admiral. 

*Section 31 is headed up by a Vulcan who is a logic extremist.   Isn't that like having Hitler heading up the CIA?

*I still don't understand why a stammering Tilly isn't escorted off the bridge when she's being an obvious distraction to the rest of the crew and not actually working at her station.   She's all over the place.   Confine her to quarters and get this snowflake some help.  This "you too can be the best captain ever, despite the fact that you are an incompetent f***up who disobeys orders and speaks out of turn" storyline needs to be dropped, fast.   It's really tiresome.

*Tyler is finally confined to quarters, where his ass should have been planted an episode ago. "Where he can do no further damage". LOL.

*Why does DISCOVERY seem to have only one person who works in Security?   Why does that individual seem to get themselves killed or nearly killed every time they go on a mission?  Her breathing tube gets knocked off and she instantly becomes useless.   She couldn't even move!   Michael didn't even try to save her, so I assumed she was already dead.   Nope, she somehow managed to crawl the two inches she needed to grab her breathing maguffin and suddenly she's fine.   If it was this easy to take out a species who needs an alternate atmosphere you'd think someone would have already punched a smug Benzite in the face. :-)

*So, DISCOVERY was the most wanted fugitive ship in the fleet.  For about 10 minutes of one episode.  Riiiiiight.

*As I stated before, Spock's relationship advice to Stammets was the best part of the episode.

*So, why couldn't they just beam Cyborg Girl off the station and into a cell?   Or, lock a transporter on her the instant she was blown out the airlock?   Nope, she's gotta die because the script says we gotta kill her.  Are they even going to recover her body to study WTF was going on with her?

*Next week, get ready for the Michael/Spock kissyface you didn't know you wanted.   It's what all good step-brothers and step-sisters do, right?   Sometimes they even get married, like on THE FLASH!   (IOW, I really wish modern television writers would find something else 'edgy' and 'daring' to get people's attention)  

edit: One additional Daedalus connection might be to the British Interplanetary Society's "Project Daedalus" study in the 1970s.   This involved sending an unmanned spacecraft to another star at a speed of about 1/10c.   The craft was to have several dozen sub-probes that would autonomously enact repair.   One variant of the design made the craft capable of self-replication.   Three episodes ago we had an incident where a time-displaced probe returned from the future all buffed up and dangerous.   Could Starfleet be simply fighting a pissed-off sentient probe from the future (a la Nomad or V*GER)?


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 17 March 2019 at 10:11am
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 17 March 2019 at 9:27am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

 Matt Redd wrote:
I don't think of it as creepy so much as being a symbiotic relationship.  Both get something from the other in exchange for something else.  The Talosians get a constant source of memory and emotion in exchange for making a single human feel whole again.  Vena gets to live her fantasy life as a perfect human in exchange for the rather invasive techniques of the Talosians.  Both parties get what they want, which may work toward your "addict" theory, but I think it's more symbiotic than addictive.  Neither feels like an addict to me, but rather filling a need that the other can supply.

Vina's dialogue in "The Cage" indicates the Talosian power of illusion acts like a drug (to them, but presumably to other life forms as well).   She also mentions a years-long punishment/reward cycle that reinforces her compliance.   The drug/addict analogies are there in the original episode, right down to the word 'narcotic'.


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 17 March 2019 at 9:27am
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 17 March 2019 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

 Victor Perez wrote:
I was thinking that their minds were being tricked into believing sensor readings that didn't exist (and thus also the computer's voice was an illusion), rather than the sensors themselves were being tricked.

That explanation works as well.  The Talosians did demonstrate the ability to remotely shut down the power on the Enterprise, though they mention they could manipulate the crew into doing things that would destroy the ship (rather than just destroy the ship outright).   

However, if the Talosians do have the power to manipulate sensors and AI/computers that would really come in handy if Starfleet had to fight... rogue AI's from the future, wouldn't it? :-)


 QUOTE:
... amazing that the writers either wittingly or unwittingly touched a huge timely social/technological issue that is creeping our way and has not hit mainstream discussion yet. That is science fiction at its best

You're talking about cybernetic enhancement, right?  Or just the concept of giving control of critical decision making over to AI?


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 17 March 2019 at 9:37am
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Victor Perez
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Posted: 18 March 2019 at 2:15am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

 Rob Ocelot wrote:
You're talking about cybernetic enhancement, right?  Or just the concept of giving control of critical decision making over to AI?


The two issues you mention are also pretty hot, especially in the form of autonomous weapon systems... Actually, though, I was thinking of something more obscure but is going to get much bigger fast: deepfakes generated by GANs (some information on these below). The writers (again accidentally or on purpose) nailed the sad, scary, ultimate future of fake news in the form of Control-AI-created holograms good enough to fool Discovery and its computer.

More on deepfakes and GANs

https://thispersondoesnotexist.com  (just refresh the page--every person you see has never existed)

https://securityintelligence.com/dont-believe-your-eyes-deep fake-videos-are-coming-to-fool-us-all/

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/robotics/artificial-inte lligence/will-deepfakes-detection-be-ready-for-2020

Deepfakes are created using AI technology called generative adversarial networks (GANs), which can be used broadly to create fake data that can pass as real data. To oversimplify how GANs work, two machine learning (ML) algorithms are pitted against each other. One creates fake data and the other judges the quality of that fake data against a set of real data. They continue this contest at massive scale, continually getting better at making fake data and judging it. When both algorithms become extremely good at their respective tasks, the product is a set of high-quality fake data.

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 18 March 2019 at 5:07am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Oh yeah, that's a very valid point Victor.   Hard to tell if it was accidental or intentional.     

I think the most disturbing thing was that a branch of law enforcement was fooled by fake evidence into pursuing someone without any real scrutiny or oversight of said evidence -- because it's easier to believe the worst about people than it is to give the benefit of the doubt, especially towards someone who had an essentially spotless record up to that point.   Both Humans and Vulcans have their reasons to mistrust Spock and it wouldn't be the first time his mixed heritage has caused problems for him in Starfleet.   I notice they made one of the Sec 31. Admirals a Vulcan logic extremist to drive the point home that the Section's pursuit of Spock had a racial/ideological undercurrent.
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Brandon Frye
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Posted: 18 March 2019 at 9:59pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

I found the idea of 'logic extremists' in this series an interesting one and it made me wonder about Lt. Valeris from Undiscovered Country. While she wasn't specifically referred to as a logic extremist, her actions certainly suggested she was one of them.


 


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Steve De Young
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Posted: 19 March 2019 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

"Logic extremists" can actually be very helpful, lore-wise, in terms of reconciling the 'asshole Vulcans' of certain eras of Trek with, you know, regular Vulcans.
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