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Topic: Roy Thomas and Neal Adams: Who wrote the Kree-Skrull War? Post ReplyPost New Topic
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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

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Posted: 17 December 2018 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Remember, the writers wrote the credits!

Thumbing thru one of the X-MEN ESSENTIALS I noticed Chris had forgotten to credit me as co-plotter on a couple of issues—and so the credit is also missing from the table of contents!

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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 17 December 2018 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Stan's definition sort of set the tone.

Marvel was very early in providing credits and Stan was the one writing them.  His feeling was that "writer" and "artist" were enough apparently.  Ditko and Kirby disagreed.  And while we would see a few instances where Stan would credit someone else as plotter or co-plotter, he usually didn't, even under the Marvel method.

But most importantly, there's no clear line between them in a lot of cases.  How much did the writer provide in the initial meeting?  How much did the artist add when laying out the story?  How much did the writer change or add when scripting the story?

We'll never know.

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Peter Martin
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Posted: 17 December 2018 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I'd agree that it's impossible to know who is remembering more correctly, or if they both have accurate recollections that merely represent different facets of the same occurrences simply through the filter of their own perceptions.

Is it possible that they discussed the plots over lunch before Neal drew them? It's possible.

Is it possible that Neal delivered the individual issues without any prior input from Roy as to the specific contents of those tales? It's possible. 

It's also possible that Roy Thomas felt he was holding the reins and giving Neal as much leeway as he felt best and that Neal felt he was totally steering the ship without either being wrong. Those two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 17 December 2018 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Why in the past were scripters writers and artists who plot not credited as writers?
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If I may add, don't forget that they were coming out of an era where NOBODY got any credit!  And also they were coming out of the 50's short monster stories, where the stories were pretty simple.  Stan not only introduced credits, but he also pioneered the Marvel Method, which was modified depending on which artist he was working with.  Historically in comics, artists were always the stars anyhow, so he probably figured the simple "Writer" for "scripter" and "Artist" for "visual storyteller" credits were enough.  At a certain point in the flagship FANTASTIC FOUR title, the credits were simply "By Stan Lee & Jack Kirby," leaving who did what to the reader's imagination.

Just based on the time it takes to do the work, one might say that the artist is more important than the writer.  That may have shifted in the last couple of decades as the writer seems to be the star these days and artists are often interchangeable (how many modern collected editions have you seen lately that have 4--or 6 or 10!--different artists?).  Neal Adams returning to Batman or Superman should have been the biggest news in comics in decades, but because he wrote the stories himself, they're overall not that great, and his writing is derided.  Imagine if Adams put all that amazing work into stories that were actually good!  Stan Lee's scripting was SO entertaining and really held the burgeoning Marvel universe together, I have no problem giving him equal credit on all the books he did.  Don't forget, Steve and Jack may have been doing the extra work of plotting, but Stan did a lot of extra work too--editing, art directing, company cheerleader, world architect--and none of that got mentioned in the little credit box either!  Aware of what he himself brought to the table, Stan probably thought the credits of "Writer" and "Artist" were enough, simple and clean.

Still, Neal Adams probably added enough to his four issues of the Kree-Skrull War that he should get a "co-plotter" credit in any collected editions, but he should not be going around saying he wrote the thing.
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 18 December 2018 at 6:07am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I would think any artist working Marvel method should have had some form of co-plotter credit, especially on the occasions they were working from a one/two page plot.

There's a lot of extra thought going into plotting/pacing etc in those instances.

The times that it was the artist coming up with story and the writer provided script (or at best, scenario), then clearly the artist is doing plotting duties.
Both plot and script involve writing
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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 December 2018 at 8:33am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

As I said, for decades the control lay with the editors, who mostly started as writers and who, in too many cases, considered the artists to be subservient to the plot--even when they were partly or wholly creating that plot!

I had to push hard for my co-plotter credit. I also pushed for Chris to stop crediting himself as "Author", since I felt we were BOTH the authors of the plot, and to stop crediting me as "Artist", since Terry was every bit as much an artist as I was.

Eventually we settled on the "writer/co-plotters/penciler" credit, which was a tad cumbersome, but at least accurate.

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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 18 December 2018 at 8:36am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

It was an important fight to have. Being given credit for one's work sometimes means as much as getting paid.
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Rick Senger
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Posted: 18 December 2018 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Just reading between the lines, I suspect Adams did do a little more than usual on the stories he drew.  He was the hot young turk at the time, having worked with great success at DC, and I'm sure Stan was happy to give him a bit more free rein as an inducement to work at Marvel, particularly on low selling titles like The X-Men back then.  However, having read a ton of Thomas stories and knowing his fondness for FF minutiae, I have my doubts Adams had anything to do with the 4th Skrull or cow reveal or the golden age stuff.  And I suspect while Thomas was super-busy at the time and did gave Adams more latitude, the overarching story feels more Thomas than Adams.  Adams drew less than half the whole story anyway (parts of four Avengers issues out of nine and those short companion Inhumans stories.)  Surely Adams doesn't think he wrote the stories for the issues he didn't draw?

BTW, a quick tangent: I've always felt John's own horror sequel to Reed's decision to leave behind the three Skrull cows from that FF annual was one of the more memorable, chilling tales from his run; a real favorite of mine!
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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 December 2018 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

BTW, a quick tangent: I've always felt John's own horror sequel to Reed's decision to leave behind the three Skrull cows from that FF annual was one of the more memorable, chilling tales from his run; a real favorite of mine!

•••

Another of my tales that was subsequently erased.

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David Miller
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Posted: 18 December 2018 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

It's interesting reading Neal's later comments below the story. Not only did Neal consider himself the primary writer on X-Men and Avengers, he also seems to take for granted Sal Buscema was the primary writer of the Skrull stories in the preceding issues. My impression is had the credit conventions of the Seventies and Eighties been in place in the Sixties, it would have resulted in a lot more artists would being credited as co-plotters or plotter. 

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