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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 06 November 2018 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Disclaimer: this topic definitely falls under the "Never give the fans what they THINK they want" category. So please don't take it literally, I'm indulging my fannish side here.

DC Comics had the STAR TREK licence from 1984-1996. Of course, that was the time period in which CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS was published.

So I take it the Anti-Monitor was threatening the STAR TREK universe, too. If only Kirk and crew could have arrived to assist the likes of Superman, Batman and Firestorm. What a dream scenario that would have been.

Okay, fannish ramblings over. Again, read my disclaimer. ;-)
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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 06 November 2018 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

No Red Skies in the ST universe, but they did have an excursion into the Mirror Universe following the events of Star Trek III.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 06 November 2018 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I don't see Q or Trelayne, or even Apollo and the other gods, standing by when the Anti-Monitor showed up.
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Bob Simko
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Posted: 06 November 2018 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Check out the STAR TREK TIMELINES game in your local app store
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 06 November 2018 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I just realised, DC was also publishing a V comic during CRISIS. So what were Donovan and Ham Tyler doing to protect the multiverse? 
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 07 November 2018 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Kirk, realizing the stakes of what's occurring, orders the Enterprise to return to the uncharted world where he left the two Lazaruses battling one another. He contacts both the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor and threatens to open the magnetic corridor in which the two Lazaruses are locked in battle. Whichever side they wind up on will be utterly destroyed and then destroy the other in turn. With the barriers between Universes weakened by the white nothingness which is consuming the worlds of the Multiverse, the effect is likely to be catastrophic; the destruction of everything, in every reality, everywhere... and Kirk swears he will do it unless these two stubborn maniacs, two beings tragically like the Lazaruses themselves, come to terms; sit down and talk about the differences between them.

Work it out. Come to some sort of an accord. BOTH of them MUST be destroyed if this HATRED between them continues. Along with everything else! There will nothing left to protect; nothing left to conquer if they don't find some way to end this MADNESS that has defined them both for so long! There is more to reality than war. The possibilities for them... are infinite. No one knows that better than they do. It is time for the bloodshed to end. And for the POSSIBILITY of something else to begin...!

The Monitors grudgingly accede to his demand and over the coming days reach an accord. The white nothingness is withdrawn from the field of play. Countless universes have been lost, but many, many more have survived as a result of Kirk's desperate gamble. "Would you really have done it, Captain?" Spock asks. "Released Lazarus and his counterpart?"

"Opened the bottle and let out the genie?" Kirk smiles. "How do we know the Monitors themselves are not Lazarus and his other self, billions of years in their own future? Still fighting it out between them? Would they even remember how it all began?"

"That does not answer my question, Captain," Spock observes.

"And let's hope we never have to, Mr. Spock. Ahead warp factor one, Mr. Sulu..."


Edited by Brian Hague on 07 November 2018 at 3:42pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 07 November 2018 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Love it, Brian!

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 07 November 2018 at 5:37pm
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 07 November 2018 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Same here, especially this:

 Brian Hague wrote:
"How do we know the Monitors themselves are not Lazarus and his other self, billions of years in their own future? Still fighting it out between them?

Perfect!
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 07 November 2018 at 7:34pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Yep. And I find myself wondering if Wolfman was homaging/inspired by "The Alternative Factor" when he wrote CRISIS.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 07 November 2018 at 10:03pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Thank you, guys. I started off by writing about how the Electric Warrior, 'Mazing Man, and Elvira were all standing closer to the front lines than Star Trek or "V" and pondering what their involvement in Crisis would have entailed. Where were the Lords of the Ultra Realm while all of this was going on?

I found steering into the topic directly a great deal more satisfying than noodling about the edges of it.

One thing that did occur to me in the first draft however was that Angel Love, the teen-romance style character whose world included cocaine and a fatal illness for her mother, only started up around the time of Legends, making her an exclusively Post-Crisis concept. What was the Pre-Crisis Angel Love's world like, I wonder? :-)

In any case, it was more fun just to write Star Trek. 

As for what Wolfman had in mind with the two Monitors, I look back on Crisis as purely seat-of-the-pants plotting. The Monitor and his assistant were originally presented as a henchmen-and-assassins-for-hire concept, a gruff urban-speaking wiseacre sitting in the shadows with a full head of hair and a blonde piece of fluff secretary. One of the first character re-imaginings of Crisis was the Monitor himself. 

That doesn't read like a misdirect. It reads like, "Oh, y'know who I already have with a gigantic database and a space satellite?" I suspect the Monitor may have been cooked up for the History of the DC Universe project rather than Crisis and would have played a different role had the series gone in that direction instead.

The entire DC line then goes on to assemble the perfect task force to battle the menace of the Anti-Monitor, something Marvel's Contest of Champions did in one page, twice, but Secret Wars took its sweet time with. As Cinema Sins once said, "Bloaters gotta bloat." 

Wolfman's crack team of carefully selected representatives from different settings and eras in DC continuity go on one mission, fail, and are thereafter subsumed into the larger community of endless crowd scenes. I'm willing to grant that the team-building and recruitment sequences may have all been a misdirect, but it would nevertheless have been nice if Firebrand, Solovar, and company had had something to do with what went on later, pitching in at the end somehow, so as not have made their assemblage a complete waste of everyone's time and comics-buying dollar.

Then the entire multiverse is destroyed, fades to white (giving Perez and his inker a much-needed blank page in the middle of the action) and... resets itself. Later, the worst possible thing that could happen happens again and the entire multiverse fades to white... and resets itself. I seem to recall everything going to a black page at one point as well, but it has been a while since I read the thing. The events all seem pretty ad hoc and on-the-fly, especially given that the ending was changed by DC editorial to ensure that all of the heroes, yes, even B'Wana Beast, Ultra the Multi-Alien*, and the Human Cannonball, were there at the beginnings of the Multiverse and so remembered everything about their Pre-Crisis existences...

To what end? Why? Because very quickly it becomes clear that, ultimately, they don't. Yes, Superman and a few of the others have some lag time before their realities are summarily excised and rewritten from scratch, but why did the entire story have to shoehorn this "crucial" bit on nonsense into the mix when nothing was going to be done with it? 

Was it because DC had nothing idling in the garage at the point Crisis ended? As written, Man of Steel's first appearance should have been Crisis #11, but since Man of Steel wasn't in the offing yet, did DC editorial suddenly screech to a halt on the idea of Crisis rebooting their line, and say, "Wait! Wait! Don't wipe their memories yet! We still need them for a few months!"

If "The Alternative Factor's" basic premise of one man from our universe and one man from a universe of anti-matter did somehow influence Wolfman's conception of Crisis, I'm surprised it finally made it onto the page. Everything else from that series looks like guesswork held together with spit and bailing wire.

* Hey, wait... Multi-Verse... Multi-Alien... Is Grant Morrison still working for DC? We have got to jump on this!!

** With Batman and Wonder Woman once again lagging behind and the yellow oval playing a role in confusing readers as to who was who and when.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 08 November 2018 at 6:40am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Good stuff, Brian! :-)

This started off as a fannish topic, but I like how it headed. 

STAR TREK isn't "immune" to crossovers. I don't know how they seamlessly did it, but IDW made a STAR TREK/PLANET OF THE APES crossover work. 

I haven't read the STAR TREK/DOCTOR WHO crossovers yet. I have read the first issue of the STAR TREK: TAS/TRANSFORMERS crossover, which I did enjoy.

Superheroes and STAR TREK may mix like oil and water (if they ever do it. Have they ever done it?). But that's what topics like this are about.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 08 November 2018 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Brian H. - You scoundrel! I LOVED that premise! "And let's hope we never have to, Mr. Spock." Sometimes it seems a little easy to forget that James T. Kirk was a most extraordinary man on a shipful of extraordinary crew.

Crisis... my thoughts on Crisis are known that I think it was a bad idea, poorly executed, with the hottest writer and artist DC had at that moment. I'm sure that Shooter would have loved Byrne and Austin on Secret Wars, and I'll bet the chances of that were pretty damned low.

And I'll say again... I think DC editorial didn't dare screw with Batman, Green Lantern, or the new Teen Titans during Crisis because they were the cash cows. You can screw with Superman and Wonder Woman... but don't kill the Golden Goose.

Robbie, I believe Star Trek crossed over with Green Lantern, but I did not purchase it, so I've no idea.I did read the X-Men crossovers, and they were fair at best.

Your observation of Star Trek and super heroes mixing like oil and water might be a bit overreaching. Granted, Superman or a Green Lantern (or Thor) could be overwhelming... the Enterprise vs Sinestro might seem patently unequal.

But I think it's a matter of scale. A Star Trek/Iron Man crossover could be really interesting... especially against the Borg. (Let's imagine Tony refitting the Enterprise to react faster and "smarter" to the Borg by making it controlled mentally by a single entity... making it a gigantic Iron Man suit, even if "worn" by Kirk or Spock.)

How would the Rann-Thanagar war have turned out if the Federation had been involved?

Or how would the conflict against the Brotherhood of Badoon fared if the Enterprise had been helping?

I feel that the right heroes might fit very well with Star Trek. But it has to be carefully handled... "Spock, what's the situation?" "The Green Lantern has pulled the planet back into orbit. No evacuation is now necessary." "Ah. Well... another game of chess, Mr. Spock?"

And of course, it's always a matter of storywriting. Kal-El on the Enterprise under a red star might be rather interesting.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 08 November 2018 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I'd certainly like to see The Borg VS Ego the Living Planet! 
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 08 November 2018 at 10:44pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Looking about on-line, apparently the Star Trek/X-Men crossover from '96 was the first time Trek's IP officially crossed over with another. That seems extraordinary, given the franchise's popularity. No guest-starring role on Scooby-Doo? No appearance on The Brady Kids? No novel in which a man with a blue box appears in Engineering and offers Mr. Scott a Jelly Baby? 

We're getting those sorts of things now, with increasing frequency, but it is a bit jarring to think Trek steered away from them for so long. Star Wars is still going strong all on its own, apparently, with no such "crossing of the streams." (Venkman, Spengler, and Stanz vs. the Force Ghosts... Hmm...) 

Eric, I enjoyed all of those premises you came up with above, even the GL one which it seems must have occurred by now, given that the idea has had two series devoted to it. Good job with the Stark-engineered Enterprise suit as well. I suspect that Kirk would be no more sanguine with that development than he was with the M-5. And the idea of a non-powered Superman whose value is in what he knows and how to go about achieving the impossible is a solid win. Setting him in among one of my favorite casts? I'd enjoy the stuffings out of that. 

Robbie, somewhere on-line there are images of a Borg-ified Galactus that I remember finding fannish-ly impressive when I first saw them.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 09 November 2018 at 5:13am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

I have seen that image, Brian. Years ago, I think.

This topic has conveyed to me how superhero crossovers can work. I can't picture Batman on the Enterprise, but I can certainly envision the cosmic and super-powered characters working well.

And, guys, if you haven't read STAR TREK/PLANET OF THE APES, give it a go!
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 09 November 2018 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

There was the Star Trek/Legion of Super-Heroes crossover, where the Legionnaires involved were Brainiac 5, Chameleon Boy, Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, Saturn Girl, and Shadow Lass. Obviously, the crossover had to be finely tuned so that the Legionnaires contributed significantly (so probably Bouncing Boy, Duo Damsel, Dream Girl, and Shrinking Violet might not have been the best choices) without dominating the story (thus, any team with Element Lad, Mon-El, Supergirl, and/or Wildfire would also have been a little unwieldy.)

I might start a Star Trek team up topic, unless anyone knows of one such already...?
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 09 November 2018 at 12:05pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Make it so, Mr Sofer. ;-)
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 09 November 2018 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Aye aye, sir.
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Andrew Saxon
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Posted: 10 November 2018 at 7:37pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

IDW made a STAR TREK/PLANET OF THE APES crossover work.

I honestly don't think they did make it work. They gave us a retread of A Private Little War with apes thrown in. While it was fun seeing Spock and Cornelius together in a panel, the story itself didn't hold up at all well, especially from the point of view of Taylor - just too many impossibilities piled up on one another to make it credible. There was no way I could believe that the events of this story could have taken place between POTA and Beneath (I'd say more but - spoilers). From the Star Trek side there were several things that really made me grit my teeth, especially at the end of the story (again, spoilers). The only good thing I can say about The Primate Directive was that I liked the artwork.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 11 November 2018 at 6:25am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Each to their own, of course. ;-)

I like it because, to my surprise, it felt organic. It felt like an "episode" of TOS or a POTA mini-movie. It felt like it slotted in perfectly while protecting the integrity of both franchises.

And I did quite like the ending. It did make me smile.
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Andrew Saxon
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Posted: 11 November 2018 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

I hated the 'let's blame Kirk for (spoiler), he was such a screw-up merchant after all' fan-boy mentality behind the ending. Mind you, before that, the destruction of the...'thing' (trying not to spoil this for anyone) was so off it might have come from the Gold Key Star Trek comics - surely the Federation would have wanted to study and understand its purpose. And would Taylor really not have... (spoiler)? Sorry, no, far from being organic The Primate Directive was just plain lazy and full of plot holes.

Robbie my friend, we must agree to differ on this one. A lot.  :-)
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 11 November 2018 at 12:59pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Hey, that's fine! :-)

And good. It's nice there is entertainment for everyone. At a recent book club (which often discusses films), I mentioned how I just don't "get" AVATAR despite its many fans. People see things differently.
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