Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
Star Trek
Byrne Robotics > Star Trek << Prev Page of 4 Next >>
Topic: How old was the "Enterprise"? Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15641
Posted: 31 October 2018 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Yes, indeed!
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Allan Summerall
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 June 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 433
Posted: 31 October 2018 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Thanks Greg! I knew I could count on you and JB to help out :)
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Sam Karns
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 7570
Posted: 24 November 2018 at 11:10am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

How many years do you assume Pike was in command of the Enterprise when we first saw him in The Cage, Mr. Byrne?
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 116944
Posted: 24 November 2018 at 11:22am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Spock served under Pike for 11 years, and "The Menagerie" takes place 13 years ago. So Spock was new to the ship then (ignoring the idiots who want him ping-ponging all over Star Fleet so he can have served with Kirk and Gary Mitchell without the Enterprise being Kirk's first command), but it did not seem like Pike was.

Of course, there's a problem in the fact that Roddenberry did not write the first pilot with the intention of it serving as a flashback. It was written in "current time", as was "Where No Man has Gone Before". But based on internal evidence, I'd guess Pike (and several members of his crew, other than Spock) had been aboard for a while when we first "met" them.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3283
Posted: 24 November 2018 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Spock served under Pike for 11 years, and "The Menagerie" takes place 13 years ago.
------------------------------------------------
So, if Spock was new then, does that mean that Kirk had been in command of the Enterprise for two years when TOS started, and therefore we saw years 3-5 of the 5 year mission?  Or am I doing the math wrong somewhere?
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 116944
Posted: 24 November 2018 at 7:02pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

If we assume Spock’s time on the ship to be contiguous—and there is absolutely no reason not to—then it all comes down to how his 11 years with Pike overlays that “13 years ago”. If he had a couple of years before Talos IV, then there woul be nine after, and that would give us 4 with Kirk. The less time before Talos, the less with Kirk.

Of course, an important factor is Kirk’s age. Thirty-four in the second season, which would make him around 30 when he became commander of the Enterprise. There are, however, a lot of people who want to ignore Roddenberry’s obvious intent, and make some other, previous ship Kirk’s first command. Which starts to skew the time frame of Kirk, Spock and Mitchell serving “for years” on the same ship.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15641
Posted: 24 November 2018 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Of course, an important factor is Kirk’s age. Thirty-four in the second season, which would make him around 30 when he became commander of the Enterprise. There are, however, a lot of people who want to ignore Roddenberry’s obvious intent, and make some other, previous ship Kirk’s first command. Which starts to skew the time frame of Kirk, Spock and Mitchell serving “for years” on the same ship.
++++++++++++

It should be noted that Kirk's bio in THE MAKING OF STAR TREK specifically states that he had previously commanded a small cruiser prior to the Enterprise.

The question is, who/when did that particular factoid come from?

We don't know for sure who wrote the line in WNMHGB about Kirk's first command. Sam Peeples? Roddenberry doing one of his uncredited rewrites? It certainly makes the most sense that Dr. Dehner is referring to the Enterprise, but the offscreen backstory which was later mentioned in TMOST may well have been in play, even at that early stage.

In terms of concrete, onscreen canon, the reasonable assumption--especially given that Kirk treats the Enterprise like a "first love"--is that Dehner is referring to the Enterprise.


Meanwhile, Mendez says in "The Menagerie" that present-day (crippled) Pike is "about (Kirk's) age", which makes no sense. That would mean Pike was in his early 20s during "The Cage", and would also contradict the generally-accepted lore that Kirk was the youngest-ever starship Captain at the time of TOS.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15641
Posted: 24 November 2018 at 8:29pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

...of course, a 20-ish Captain Pike would be right at home in the Abramsverse.

A subtle-yet-important aspect of TOS is that becoming a starship Captain was not an easy task. All of the Captains seen in TOS--aside from Kirk--were older men. Experienced men. And, blatant sexism aside, it was also (unfortunately) established that women didn't even get a crack at the job. That bit of lore should go into the "ignore" pile.

The fact that Kirk was promoted to Captain at such a young age subtly speaks volumes about the character without turning him into a Gary Stu wunderkind. He was clearly established as a by-the-book, hardworking guy.

Of course, the Abramsverse and STD have flushed all of this down the toilet, with 20-ish NuKirk going from cadet to Captain in the span of a few days, and the traitorous and insubordinate Michael Burnham surely in line for the Captain's chair even after mutinously neck-pinching her Captain and disobeying direct orders. Flag officer material, for sure.

Sigh.

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 24 November 2018 at 8:35pm
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8323
Posted: 25 November 2018 at 12:20am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

From a certain perspective, we should be glad that we got the original crew and the general sense of professionalism associated with rank that we did for as long as we did. We could easily have wound up with rampant fan-think infesting the franchise long before 2009. 

In a sense we did on TNG where everyone was special with their own set of powers and interesting backstories, but even then, it was downplayed rather than set squarely before us, front and center, as if that is the way things work in this universe. 

As for women not being allowed a shot at the captaincy, I know what Dr. Lester said in "Turnabout Intruder" about Kirk's world of starships not allowing women, but it should be remembered that A.) she was a murderously insane unreliable narrator who blamed everyone else for her problems and B.) as shown in both "The Cage" and "The Menagerie," Number One was the Captain of the Enterprise while Pike was missing. Had he not returned, she would have been the captain at least until Starfleet either decided to bring in someone else or make her posting permanent. 

Kirk's last line in "Turnabout Intruder" is unfortunate in that it seems to back up Lester's statement, "Her life could have been as full as any woman's," thereby suggesting that life still did not present the same opportunities for her that it did for, say, him, but that is not definitive. Number One's issuing orders and taking command in Pike's absence is. 

It well may be that with only twelve empty seats to fill on the starship roster that a woman had not been considered for the position yet, but we only have Lester's word for it that they couldn't be. 

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brian Hague
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8323
Posted: 25 November 2018 at 12:39am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

It should also be noted that Star Trek had no issue with a woman commanding an alien vessel as shown in "The Enterprise Incident." Granted, they didn't show her being very good at it, but to the best of my knowledge, nearly every starship captain but Kirk and Commodore Stone were shown to be somewhat lacking as well. 

Women are also shown to be in command in general as shown in "Catspaw" and "Wink of an Eye." Again, issues of romance and self-control make those depictions somewhat iffy, but you can't say, as fans often do, that Star Trek had an issue with women being in charge and did not allow such things to occur. 

Questions of authority came up a lot on the show, and those possessing it were usually not the best people for the job. Very few leaders on the show escaped without a flaw or two being exposed, Kirk included.


Edited by Brian Hague on 25 November 2018 at 12:41am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15641
Posted: 25 November 2018 at 12:47am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

It’s a very strange turnabout (...pun!), that’s for sure. The first pilot established Number One as a highly-competent officer, and most certainly command-track material. Flash-forward to the series finale, and you have Lester becoming murderously insane because she was bitter and jealous over Kirk’s Captaincy, and her own gender blocking her from achieving the power and prestige of starship command. One of many, many ill-conceived ideas of the third season.

I’d be more than happy to dismiss the whole thing by saying that Lester was simply delusional, but the episode itself indicates otherwise, and Roddenberry himself apparently said (years later) that it was blatantly sexist writing and a mistake. A very strange and unfortunate misstep, that’s for sure.

In the back of my mind, I’ve long thought it would be neat if the unseen Captain Harris (from “The Ultimate Computer”) was a woman, since the character’s gender was never mentioned.

Anyway, I was very happy to see JB ignore the Lester nonsense and show Commodore/Admiral Number One commanding the Yorktown in his various IDW comics. A cool progression for that woefully untapped character, and a righting of the wrong caused by “Turnabout Intruder”. 

Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15641
Posted: 25 November 2018 at 12:53am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Granted, they didn't show her being very good at it, but to the best of my knowledge, nearly every starship captain but Kirk and Commodore Stone were shown to be somewhat lacking as well. 
+++++++

One of the things I’ve long found very interesting about “Court Martial” is that Stone, while never presented as a “heavy” in the episode, does actually try to get Kirk to take a ground assignment so as to help him sweep Kirk’s supposed role in Ben Finney’s “death” under the rug. Sure, he’s doing it for the sake of appearances—the scandal would be bad for the image of Starfleet—, but it’s still a rather shocking suggestion. Not quite a blatant cover-up, but still rather shady.

If one is watching TOS in production order, this might just be why Stone was suddenly replaced with Mendez by the next time the Enterprise visited Starbase 11, in “The Menagerie”.



Edited by Greg Kirkman on 25 November 2018 at 12:54am
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

<< Prev Page of 4 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login