Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
Dr. Who
Byrne Robotics > Dr. Who << Prev Page of 2
Topic: Rosa (S11, E3) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3073
Posted: 23 October 2018 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

On an unrelated note - I'm surprised that three episodes
in (where the characters now all know they're in a time
machine) and no one has demanded they go back and rescue
'Nan' from episode 1. 
-----------------------------------------
Also, since the Doctor has been thus far unable to get them back to their own place and time, why would they think she could aim the TARDIS precisely enough to get there at the moment they would need to to save her?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Jim Muir
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1148
Posted: 24 October 2018 at 1:50am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

You're all right, of course.
Though If I had just lost a close member of my family and
discovered someone with a time machine, I'm pretty sure
it would be the Very First Thing I asked!

Back to Top profile | search
 
Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12188
Posted: 24 October 2018 at 5:20am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Of course, Jim, the First Doctor said it, but when has any incarnation of the Doctor followed the rules? ;-)
Back to Top profile | search
 
Craig Bogart
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 18 June 2008
Posts: 382
Posted: 26 October 2018 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

"On an unrelated note - I'm surprised that three episodes 
in (where the characters now all know they're in a time 
machine) and no one has demanded they go back and rescue 
'Nan' from episode 1."

We've already been there with "Father's Day".
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Matthew Wilkie
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 March 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1061
Posted: 26 October 2018 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Considering that the companions only discover that the Doctor has a time machine at the end of episode 2 and they have their first adventure in the past while attempting to get home at the beginning of episode 3, there really wasn't much time for that conversation. 

***

I'm working from memory, but I think that it was stated that they had actually gone to a number of locations between episodes 2 and 3.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12308
Posted: 26 October 2018 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I'm working from memory, but I think that it was stated that they had actually gone to a number of locations between episodes 2 and 3.

———

They had made several failed attempts to arrive in 2018 Sheffield, but the impression that I had was they never went exploring. The Doctor only left the TARDIS that time to investigate the artron energy. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Jason Scott
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 August 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 862
Posted: 28 October 2018 at 12:49pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

This was the first episode of the new season that actually felt any good to me. (Maybe because as Greg has said it was very reminiscent of Quantum leap.)
Some very nice production values as well. Shooting it abroad really helped get away from looking like Cardiff again.

Sadly tonight's is a return to ho-hum Sheffield. And Spiders! So can't say I'm looking forward to it.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2555
Posted: 29 October 2018 at 1:32am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

1955 is a little before my time but apparently all white people were violent and deranged back then.  This episode makes Mississippi Burning look like Sesame Street.

Would an ignorant racist waitress from Alabama assume Yasmin was Mexican?  I know it was meant to be hilarious but that took me right out of the episode and got me wondering.  From the quick Googling I did, the Hispanic population of Alabama in 1970 was about .5%.  15-20 earlier it was probably less.

It seems to me that it's a "joke" that modern viewers would get but one that doesn't necessarily make any historical sense.

Definitely felt more like Quantum Leap than Doctor Who.  It seems they were trying to somewhat accurately portray the history of Rosa Parks but that becomes a dangerous retelling when every white person of the era is portrayed as a propaganda level of racism and hate.  

I suppose it's also common for the Tardis to land the Doctor in situations that weren't expected or planned but I don't recall the Doctor continually not being able to get back to a particular time when the Tardis was working properly.  I admit, I may be forgetting but it seems like the modern Doctor pops in and out of time and space with relative accuracy.

In which case, I'd have preferred if the Doctor had noticed the energy particles in the time stream and purposely detoured in 1955 to investigate.  They were on the way to 2018 but it was too important and getting home had to wait.

That would possibly create some tension from the companions and perhaps leave the audience wondering if the Doctor was just doing it as an excuse to keep his new playmates around.

I have definitely not warmed up to this new group at all and none of it has felt like Doctor Who but I kind of enjoyed episode 2.  Especially compared to 1 and 3.  I've read that the ratings are down to 6+ million from the 8+ million premiere so I don't know if it's going to be a steady decline or if it's just finding it's leveling off point.  Apparently the show is ranking higher than previous seasons of Who but I don't know what that means in actual viewers.  A 25% drop in 2 weeks sounds like a lot but that may be normal for all I know.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12308
Posted: 29 October 2018 at 6:23am | IP Logged | 9 post reply


 QUOTE:
1955 is a little before my time but apparently all white people were violent and deranged back then.  This episode makes Mississippi Burning look like Sesame Street.

Hardly. It did, however, depict an environment where Emmett Till could be murdered and have people defending the killers even after they confessed, where non-violent protestors sitting at a lunch counter could be dragged out of their seats and beaten, where mobs of white people wielding baseball bats and iron pipes could beat a group of people just riding a bus together and get away with it....


 QUOTE:
Would an ignorant racist waitress from Alabama assume Yasmin was Mexican?  I know it was meant to be hilarious but that took me right out of the episode and got me wondering.  From the quick Googling I did, the Hispanic population of Alabama in 1970 was about .5%.  15-20 earlier it was probably less.

It seems to me that it's a "joke" that modern viewers would get but one that doesn't necessarily make any historical sense.

Anti-Mexican sentiment is not a modern phenomenon. "Operation Wetback", the mass deportation of Mexican nationals in the US took place in 1954. Also, the bracero guest worker program that brought Mexicans into the country to work in agriculture included Arkansas and Mississippi as participants. So it's not that far-fetched that a waitress in Alabama would see a brown person and assume Mexican. What other ethnicity would she assume?



Edited by Michael Roberts on 29 October 2018 at 6:26am
Back to Top profile | search
 
Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2555
Posted: 29 October 2018 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

 Michael Roberts wrote:
Hardly. It did, however, depict an environment where Emmett Till could be murdered and have people defending the killers even after they confessed, where non-violent protestors sitting at a lunch counter could be dragged out of their seats and beaten, where mobs of white people wielding baseball bats and iron pipes could beat a group of people just riding a bus together and get away with it....

I think the episode is assuming too much.  It is assuming that the viewer knows that there were "some" white people who weren't hateful, racist, violent people in Alabama but it portrays "all" white people(from that era) as such.  It's inconsistent too. The one man strikes Ryan who is being polite and respectful but does nothing to Parks when she gets in the way and interrupts him.

Now that I think about it, everyone Ryan encounters treats him poorly but it's a mixed reaction with Parks.  The bus driver screams at her but others treat her a little less maniacally.  The police that take her off the bus are downright patient and gentle.  

I just think a more balanced depiction of that era would have been just as jarring to people from 65 years in the future.  A more realistic depiction that showed some white people were sympathetic but conflicted would have been just as dramatic and not taken away from the story.
 Michael Roberts wrote:
Anti-Mexican sentiment is not a modern phenomenon. "Operation Wetback", the mass deportation of Mexican nationals in the US took place in 1954. Also, the bracero guest worker program that brought Mexicans into the country to work in agriculture included Arkansas and Mississippi as participants. So it's not that far-fetched that a waitress in Alabama would see a brown person and assume Mexican. What other ethnicity would she assume?
Persian?  Or asking?  "What are you?" would be just as insulting but less "humorous".  Probably the most realistic response if you think about it.  But that wasn't the message.  I don't really know how Alabamans felt about Mexicans but the deportation event you suggested was initiated by the Mexican government, wasn't it?

I don't know.  The episode just paints "all" white people a certain way and in a story that's supposed to be about understanding and tolerance, it's either ironic or agenda driven.  
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3073
Posted: 29 October 2018 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

The episode just paints "all" white people a certain way and in a story that's supposed to be about understanding and tolerance, it's either ironic or agenda driven.  
-------------------------------------------------
All white people in Alabama in the 1950's.  If there had been an SJW there, that would have upset me considerably more.  A couple years ago on NPR, they read out some of the letters that housewives in the deep south sent to Truman when the US military was desegregated.  Stuff that would make a Klansman blush.  From the southern equivalent of Donna Reed.  The only reason Parks got different treatment is that they knew her in the community.  Ryan was a stranger.

I get that we don't want to believe that people that close to our own time could have been that horrible.  But they were.  That's historical reality.  There were enlightened people, usually young idealists, in that time who came down south to help the struggle.  Many of them were murdered for it.  There were probably people of similar sympathies in Alabama in the 1950's.  But they were cowards, who didn't dare say anything publicly for fear of the repercussions.  If you want to say that moral cowards who allow racism to happen are morally superior to the racists themselves somehow...okay...but its shades of evil.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3073
Posted: 29 October 2018 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Also, as someone who serves a largely Arab community in the South, to this very day a lot of people assume they're Mexican until told differently.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2555
Posted: 29 October 2018 at 1:20pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

  wrote:
All white people in Alabama in the 1950's.
Not "some" or "most" but "all"?  


Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3073
Posted: 29 October 2018 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Not "some" or "most" but "all"?  
--------------------------------------
Yes, all.  Just like everyone in Europe in the 17th century was sexist.  And everyone in 14th century Germania was an anti-Semite.  There were not  enlightened white people in the Jim Crow South who publicly rejected racism.  Or 18th century America as a whole.  None of the founding fathers thought that women or Africans should be allowed to vote.

The reason is that, in this case, racism was built into the social and political structures in which this people grew up and lived their entire lives.  Its the way things were from their birth to their death.  People were not as mobile as they are today.  When racist ideology is simply bred into people, and is reinforced by every single social institution in their world, they don't question it.  In fact, they were willing to violently fight to preserve it because it was all they knew.

To suggest otherwise not only is dishonest to history, in this case a history of oppression.  To suggest otherwise is to deny the basic hold that tribalism has on us and on our fellow human beings.  If we pretend that there were people who thought the way we do at various points in this past when there simply weren't, we take our own present beliefs and make them the sine qua non of human enlightenment.  And when you do that, you miss all of the ways in which you and I are still in the dark.  100 years from now, people will look back on us, and our literature, and our science, and our culture and find it offensive.  And they'll imagine that there must have been someone who though the way they will in our era.  But there isn't.  We're all bound by our times and our world and our context.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12308
Posted: 29 October 2018 at 3:18pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply


 QUOTE:
Now that I think about it, everyone Ryan encounters treats him poorly but it's a mixed reaction with Parks.

Yes. Because Ryan was behaving like a black man from 2018 England and not a black man from the 50s Southern United States. And he was traveling with a white woman wearing pants and a brown woman. That people from the 50s South would have an issue with all of that is kind of the point. 


 QUOTE:
I just think a more balanced depiction of that era would have been just as jarring to people from 65 years in the future.  A more realistic depiction that showed some white people were sympathetic but conflicted would have been just as dramatic and not taken away from the story.

That wouldn’t be realistic though. That would be revisionist bullshit political correctness for white people. Certainly there were Southern whites who felt blacks should be treated better. But they were operating in a society that allowed violence on “uppity” black teenage boys to be murdered without repercussions. They were existing in a society that turned a blind eye to quiet protestors having the shit beat out of them. So how visibly sympathetic and conflicted were they really? 


 QUOTE:
Persian?

Err... do you know what Persians look like?


 QUOTE:
What are you?" would be just as insulting but less "humorous".  Probably the most realistic response if you think about it.
 

Nope. Speaking as a brown-skinned Asian person who’s been asked if he’s Mexican (in California where most people should really know the difference ) and has observed all sorts of people from Filipino to Indian to Armenian to all the other Hispanic ethnicities from countries that are not Mexico being asked if Mexican, it is pretty damn realistic.


 QUOTE:
I don't really know how Alabamans felt about Mexicans but the deportation event you suggested was initiated by the Mexican government, wasn't it?

The Mexican government wanted some of its nationals to return because of a labor shortage. I’m pretty confident that they were not the ones who labeled it Operation WETBACK and were not responsible for the anti-Mexican sentiment that allowed for that slur.


 QUOTE:
I don't know.  The episode just paints "all" white people a certain way and in a story that's supposed to be about understanding and tolerance, it's either ironic or agenda driven.

The only agenda I saw was to depict the environment that Rosa Parks lived in accurately and not present some sanitized, politically correct view of the 50s South.   


Edited by Michael Roberts on 29 October 2018 at 3:38pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2555
Posted: 29 October 2018 at 3:41pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

 Steve De Young wrote:
Yes, all.  Just like everyone in Europe in the 17th century was sexist.  And everyone in 14th century Germania was an anti-Semite.  There were not  enlightened white people in the Jim Crow South who publicly rejected racism.  Or 18th century America as a whole.  None of the founding fathers thought that women or Africans should be allowed to vote.
Perhaps it's true but I find it hard to believe that every single person in 1955 Alamba was as depicted.  I find it more reasonable to assume there were at least "some" people who, although ignorant and misinformed, who's first response wouldn't be to strike a black man who politely tried to return a woman's glove.

It doesn't seem reasonable to me that change would have occurred if "all" white people in Alabama at that time were as depicted in this episode.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2555
Posted: 29 October 2018 at 4:05pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

 Michael Roberts wrote:
Yes. Because Ryan was behaving like a black man from 2018 England and not a black man from the 50s Southern United States. And he was traveling with a white woman wearing pants and a brown woman. That people from the 50s South would have an issue with all of that is kind of the point.
That isn't true.  Ryan was being polite and respectful.  He kindly and clearly tried to return a woman's glove and got smacked for some reason.  You make it sound like he was groping the sheriff's blonde haired daughter in the middle of the town square.
 Michael Roberts wrote:
That wouldn’t be realistic though. That would be revisionist bullshit political correctness for white people. Certainly there were Southern whites who felt blacks should be treated better. But they were operating in a society that allowed violence on “uppity” black teenage boys to be murdered without repercussions. They were existing in a society that turned a blind eye to quiet protestors having the shit beat out of them. So how visiblysympathetic and conflicted were they really?
Not balanced.  Just more balanced.  I still think 1955 Alabamans would be a little more restrained in the circumstances depicted.  At least a couple of the scenes.  I just think it was a little extreme to portray everyone as hate filled and potentially violent.  There were certainly those who were that way but I don't think "everyone" was that way.
 Michael Roberts wrote:
Err... do you know what Persians look like?
What does that have to do with the question what should the waitress have guessed?  I don't happen to think Mexican is the first thing that would have popped into her mind.  
 Michael Roberts wrote:
Nope. Speaking as a brown-skinned Asian person who’s been asked if he’s Mexican (in California where most people should really know the difference ) and has observed all sorts of people from Filipino to Indian to Armenian to all the other Hispanic ethnicities from countries that are not Mexico being asked if Mexican, it is pretty damn realistic.
I don't think yours is an equitable situation.  In California where there are a large percentage of Mexicans it would be a lot more realistic to assume that someone with non-white coloring might be Mexican.  Sure, it's still ignorant and lazy but to some degree understandable.  In 1955 Alabama where everyone was either white or black and there were presumably very few, if any, Mexicans, I don't think that is an obvious choice for her to make.
 Michael Roberts wrote:
The Mexican government wanted some of its nationals to return because of a labor shortage. I’m pretty confident that they were not the ones who labeled it Operation WETBACK and were not responsible for the anti-Mexican sentiment that allowed for that slur.
But it doesn't really illustrate how Alabamans felt about Mexicans or that there was a national racism toward them as you suggest.  Yes, border states that were employing cheap labor and embroiled in the controversy probably had strong feelings on the subject but I'd imagine that a thousand miles away in Alabama that feelings weren't so strong.
 Michael Roberts wrote:
The only agenda I saw was to depict the environment that Rosa Parks lived in accurately and not present some sanitized, politically correct view of the 50s South.
I don't believe I suggested sanitizing or even misrepresenting what went on back then but I do feel like the way "all" white people were portrayed was exaggerated.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3073
Posted: 30 October 2018 at 1:02pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

It doesn't seem reasonable to me that change would have occurred if "all" white people in Alabama at that time were as depicted in this episode.
---------------------------------------------------
Change hasn't occurred.  People didn't wake up one day and decide that segregation was wrong.  The federal government desegregated the south by force.  And the people in the south fought back with horrific racial violence.

Let me give you one example.  I could give you many from here in Louisiana.

A friend of mine is a lawyer down here.  You would never in a million years peg this guy as a racist.  He's the son of Greek immigrants.  He's a Democrat.  He's done work for the ACLU.  He's not a member of anything even resembling a hate group.  He's polite, kind, and compassionate.  He gives substantial amounts of money to charity.

But if you get to know him and you get a couple of drinks in him, he'll tell you one of his favorite stories.  About how when he was at LSU law school in the 80's, the students decided to do a float for the Mardi Gras parade one year.  He and his friends dressed as confederate soldiers.  They forced the law school's then only black student to dress as a slave and pretend to pull the float while they pretended to whip him.  But, he says, they gave him a good bottle of scotch after it was all over, so its okay.

He tells this story like its a hilarious anecdote.  When he told it in front of me, he had no idea why I looked so horrified.

These dark, tribalistic feelings are still inside people and if society around them allows or encourages them to express them openly, they will.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Craig Bogart
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 18 June 2008
Posts: 382
Posted: 02 November 2018 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

The direction I thought the episode had been going in, and I wish they had done it: the TARDIS crew can't get the driver back on the bus.  So...  bus driver Graham has to be the guy that takes the route and, for the sake of history, gets Rosa Parks arrested.  On top of everything else going on in that episode, seeing Graham wrestle with that would have been a gut punch as well.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 10378
Posted: 02 November 2018 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

I thought it was heading to that conclusion as well, with
Graham having a black wife, it would have made for a
dilemma for Graham to wrestle with.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12308
Posted: 02 November 2018 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

 Andy Mokler wrote:
That isn't true.  Ryan was being polite and respectful.  He kindly and clearly tried to return a woman's glove and got smacked for some reason.  You make it sound like he was groping the sheriff's blonde haired daughter in the middle of the town square.

That's not what I said. I said he was behaving like a black man from 2018 England instead of a black man from the 50s South. Of course Ryan was polite and respectful. What he wasn’t was subservient and submissive. If you don’t get what was offensive about his behavior, I don’t know what to tell you.  


 QUOTE:
Not balanced.  Just more balanced.  I still think 1955 Alabamans would be a little more restrained in the circumstances depicted.  At least a couple of the scenes.  I just think it was a little extreme to portray everyone as hate filled and potentially violent.  There were certainly those who were that way but I don't think "everyone" was that way.
 

It doesn’t matter if “everyone” was that way. Society was that way. Not everyone was hate-filled and violent, but that kind of behavior was normalized where people were free to behave that way. That’s the point. 

It’s not like the Doctor and her companions were stopping everyone white person they met and asked them about their opinions on race relations. They were being confronted by the confrontational people who had issues with their presence.


 QUOTE:
What does that have to do with the question what should the waitress have guessed?  I don't happen to think Mexican is the first thing that would have popped into her mind.


 QUOTE:
I don't think yours is an equitable situation.  In California where there are a large percentage of Mexicans it would be a lot more realistic to assume that someone with non-white coloring might be Mexican.  Sure, it's still ignorant and lazy but to some degree understandable.  In 1955 Alabama where everyone was either white or black and there were presumably very few, if any, Mexicans, I don't think that is an obvious choice for her to make.
 

Your logic about percentages is correct. You are just not extending it far enough. Hispanics are and have been the largest ethnic group in the US after whites and blacks.  The vast majority of those Hispanics are of Mexican origin. So regardless of how many Mexicans were actually in Alabama in the 50s, Mexican would be the third largest minority group in the US. So I don’t know why you would claim that someone would assume any other ethnic group before that. Maybe if you were trying to argue for Puerto Ricans over Mexicans in New York or Cubans over Mexicans in Florida.  Certainly Mexican would be a more logical assumption by population over Persians (who are mostly white by the way, which is why I asked).


 QUOTE:
But it doesn't really illustrate how Alabamans felt about Mexicans or that there was a national racism toward them as you suggest.  Yes, border states that were employing cheap labor and embroiled in the controversy probably had strong feelings on the subject but I'd imagine that a thousand miles away in Alabama that feelings weren't so strong.

The division in the South was Whites and Colored. Which category do you think a brown-skinned Mexican fell under?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12308
Posted: 02 November 2018 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply


 QUOTE:
The direction I thought the episode had been going in, and I wish they had done it: the TARDIS crew can't get the driver back on the bus.  So...  bus driver Graham has to be the guy that takes the route and, for the sake of history, gets Rosa Parks arrested.  On top of everything else going on in that episode, seeing Graham wrestle with that would have been a gut punch as well.

The writers were careful to avoid making the Doctor the hero in Rosa's story. They undid the damage that Krasko did, but they didn't do anything to influence Rosa Parks or James Blake. Making Graham become the bus driver would have taken that away.

I thought it was treading the line as it was by having Graham struggle with staying on the bus. Having Graham become the bus driver would have made Rosa Parks' story about an old white guy's pain over racism.
Back to Top profile | search
 

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login
If you are not already registered you must first register

<< Prev Page of 2
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login