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DW Zomberg
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Posted: 12 October 2018 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

fifteen prophetic references that Jesus ended up fulfilling

Yeah, and the last Harry Potter book "fulfilled" the prophecies of the first one. 
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 12 October 2018 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

The Old Testament is a cupboard full of all kinds of old stuff... bits lifted from the Sumerian cuneiform which includes Noah and his son Nimrod, a couple creation stories roughly stuck together, some thou shalt nots and thou shalts top ten lists, some poems or song lyrics, a story about a proletariat cat named Job who is rewarded for faith with torments, a few 'just so' stories with pillars of salt and other punishments, Abraham denying his wife is his wife so men could rape her without murdering him, a scene of human sacrifice e of his own son because a voice told him to, oops.

The the New Testament is a pack of fleshings out of some sayings a couple people remembered however accurately and passed on, plus a childhood super powers story grafted on, some bits some guys didn't like and demanded not be included and destroyed wherever copies were found, a bundle of various letters from a villain turned hero, and some dude's wild dream for a finale, translated from Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, maybe even Coptic Egyptian into Latin and then old English.

Don't worry about it, just pray every day "Lord protect me from your followers!" Hey, maybe that's working, you never know. Oh wait, Ted Cruz and Pat Robertson are still there, maybe not. This is middle earth, midgard, everything is supposed to be half effed up. Go do something positive and over time it can be a bit more livable...:^)
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 12 October 2018 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I don't know why the arguments between theists and atheists persist. Neither ever persuade the other, in my experience.

I'm a stone-cold atheist. I know theists who are wonderful people. I know atheists who are horrible people.

One's belief or lack thereof in God or any particular religion, by itself, tells me nothing about what kind of person you are, your political beliefs, etc.

All I ask is that the state, and society, leave me alone about my atheism. First amendment and all that. 

Being an atheist may make you "scientifically correct" but it doesn't automatically make you morally superior to theists. 

That's all I have to say on this matter. 


Edited by Adam Schulman on 12 October 2018 at 1:28pm
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 12 October 2018 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

 Adam Schulman wrote:
Being an atheist may make you "scientifically correct" but it doesn't automatically make you morally superior to theists.

Of course. People are a very peculiar breed - and come in all shapes and sizes.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 12 October 2018 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

People can't be judged generally by their beliefs, any more than by their gender or race.

"All women are terrible drivers."
"All Muslims are terrorists who want to kill all non-Muslims."
"All Jews are greedy."

I am still of the mindset of not hating groups of people by their nature, but to hate them individually. For example, I do not hate all Baptists. I hate Baptists who would kidnap black people, tie them to a tree, and beat the shit out of them, possibly to death. That method works, for me at least.
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 12:24am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

It certainly is lucky you Christians came alonge to show the Jews they were getting their own mythology wrong.
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You know the early Christians were mostly Jews, right?

Call it what you will, the faith recorded in the Bible was a living and active thing, growing in depth and revelation as it went from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Moses to Jesus.  It's all one continuity.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 6:03am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

You know the early Christians were mostly Jews, right?

•••

Jesus was a Jew who preached to other Jews about Jewish matters. The term “Christian” did not emerge until long after his death. (For ease of discussion we will assume he actually existed.)

If someone could have approached Jesus and told him he was founding a new and separate religion, he would have disputed that concept. He thought and acted as a Jew, based on his own interpretation of the Law. He believed himself to be the fulfillment of that Law. He wasn’t the first.

The schism starts when Saul of Tarsus, known as Paul, who had never met Jesus except in a "vision." and started preaching his own version. What we call Christianity would more properly be called Paulism.

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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 6:58am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Yeah, and the last Harry Potter book "fulfilled" the prophecies of the first one. 

----

Finally, someone made me love Harry Potter.
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DW Zomberg
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 8:20am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

It's all one continuity.

The New Testament is a retcon written by folks who badly misinterpreted certain parts of the Old Testament. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 8:28am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The OT itself is a jumble of rewrites and retcons, designed to advance particular agendas. Archeological evidence for those big stories is sparse indeed, not to mention the absence of reports from other cultures describing supposedly world wide events. How did the Chinese miss the Flood? Why didn’t the calendar obsessed Aztec peoples record the Sun standing still for a day?

(I’ve long been fascinated by the picture of other cultures around the world blithely carrying on with their business, while in the Middle East God was using a series of incredibly inefficient delivery systems to give us the Most Important Messages Ever.)

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I know we've been down this road before, and there are people (such as Ken Ham) who will always justify something, but the Genesis 1/Genesis 2 contradictions make no sense to me. Was Adam lonely and in need of animals? Or did he and Eve come last, the pinnacle of God's creation?

I never understood the Abraham/Isaac story, either. An omnipotent being, by definition, would know that Abraham was sincere, why that whole charade?

I did read about an early Christian group (Marcionites) who rejected the OT God, believing him to be a different being to the NT God.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

"It feels to me so strange beyond anything I can think, to be able to believe in any of the known religions. Yet how beautiful if you could. Fancy feeling yourself saved, as they say - set apart to have a great reward."

- Victorian illustrator Kate Greenaway
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 3:43pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

I know we've been down this road before, and there are people (such as Ken Ham) who will always justify something, but the Genesis 1/Genesis 2 contradictions make no sense to me. Was Adam lonely and in need of animals? Or did he and Eve come last, the pinnacle of God's creation?

•••

There was no reason for Adam to be lonely in Genesis I, since the God reated adam, the Hebrew word for Mankind.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Speaking of mankind, I was always baffled by Cain's wife. Who was she?

Adam and Eve had several kids, sure, but it didn't sound like they had a large number. So after Cain killed Abel, who became his wife? And who were the people he had to keep away from by "wearing" the Mark of Cain?
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 4:20pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

How did the Chinese miss the Flood?
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All the great cultures of the ancient remember a Flood, usually with the same themes: The Deity sends it, a righteous man (usually with his family) is saved from it, through building a boat/ark, and then must rebuild/replenish the land.

Besides Noah in the Bible, there's Nu'u in Hawaii, Gilgamesh in Mesopotamia, Manu in Hinduism, Deucalion in Greek myth, Bergelmir in Norse myth, the Finnish flood myth, flood myths of native peoples in the Americas and Australia, etc.  The Great Flood myth of China and its hero Gun Yu are a very important part of Chinese culture and are attributed to being the start of the Chinese nation.  And this Flood's time period, around 3,000 B.C., would have placed it in the same general time period of the biblical Flood.

(And, of course, all the different names and memories of details can be attributed to the confusion surrounding the dispersion after the Tower of Babel.)
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Speaking of mankind, I was always baffled by Cain's wife. Who was she?

Adam and Eve had several kids, sure, but it didn't sound like they had a large number. So after Cain killed Abel, who became his wife? And who were the people he had to keep away from by "wearing" the Mark of Cain?
___________________________

Genesis 5:4 says that after Cain, Abel, and Seth, Adam and Eve "had many sons and daughters."  The scripture says that Adam lived into his 900's, so we can assume Eve did too.  Since they were commissioned with "replenishing the earth" (or simply "fill" the Earth), there's little reason they wouldn't have had children for as long as possible.  If they only had one baby a year, they could have had as many as 900 children, just by themselves.  Once their children started having children, we're talking a population of thousands or tens or thousands in a relatively short amount of time.  (I saw a newspaper article about a turn of the century Mexican immigrant surrounded by his 100 offspring.)  Living to your 900's implies perfect health, so there was no danger of health problems of these initial close relatives marrying.  Cain having a wife is no problem.  The "mark of Cain" protection is interesting.  Either it was to protect him from his future nieces and nephews or some animals (like the talking snake) might have been more intelligent than we normally think.  Or was there somebody else around that we know nothing about?  (The Bible does have some mysteries!) 


Edited by Eric Jansen on 13 October 2018 at 4:33pm
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Well, Eric, my friend, that's asking me to believe in people living into their 900s. ;-)

I'll respect anyone's right to believe, of course.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

We’re still talking about a lot of sister fucking, right?
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DW Zomberg
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

the tower of Babel

Using one myth to explain another is an act of desperation at best, lunacy at worst. Isn't it much simpler to recognize that primitive cultures saw the remains of animals killed during the Ice Age in places they wouldn't otherwise have been found and used magic to explain the mystery?

Occam's Razor, baby.


Edited by DW Zomberg on 13 October 2018 at 4:50pm
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Eric Jansen
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Occam's Razor would dictate that if every culture with a written history remembers some sort of worldwide flood, maybe that's what happened.  Bringing in frozen mammoths to explain why everybody remembers rising waters and a man with a boat is a bit silly.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Occam's Razor would dictate that if every culture with a written history remembers some sort of worldwide flood, maybe that's what happened.

•••

Disingenuous to say the least. At the time these “worldwide” events are described, the “world” is a very small, very local thing. Ask the people in Mexico Beach, Florida if their “whole world” has been destroyed. Then transplant that thinking back in time a few thousand years.

Yeah, “worldwide” floods must refer literally to the whole planet.

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Paul Kimball
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Occam's Razor would dictate that if every culture with a written history
remembers some sort of worldwide flood, maybe that's what happened.   
+++++++++I
would say it's good evidence that every culture experienced rain but since
none of these cultures knew of each other and time frames aren't consistent,
the claim of the world having being flooded is questionable. Now if every one
of these cultures(Chinese, greek, South American, etc) all spoke about a man
in the Middle East named Noah, that would be more convincing. I have a hard
time understanding how all these culture that experienced the same thing
forgot about Noah.

Edited by Paul Kimball on 13 October 2018 at 6:16pm
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 13 October 2018 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Noah lived to be 950. What is there to doubt in this story?

Edited by Peter Martin on 13 October 2018 at 7:19pm
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