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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 12 October 2018 at 5:03pm | IP Logged | 1
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I found out fairly recently that I DO have faith, and that I am a true believer.
I have faith that airplanes won't crash. I have faith that an elevator will carry me properly without dropping. I have faith that a 30 story building is solid and won't collapse under my weight.
I can't prove any of those things, and while I know that they are driven by science, I believe them without being shown what's technologically behind them.
I guess that the difference is that I could eventually get to the truth of these, I don't have to to be a believer.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132282
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| Posted: 12 October 2018 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 2
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Someone said that faith is believing in something you know can’t be true. There’s also the great difference between believing something (the plane won’t crash) and believing IN something (the plane won’t crash because I prayed it wouldn’t).Semantics? Maybe. But on one side lies common sense, and on the other the persecution and murder of millions of innocent people. You know where I prefer to hang my hat!
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DW Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 June 2012
Posts: 444
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| Posted: 13 October 2018 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 3
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You know believers have lost the battle when they start comparing their faith to things like elevators and traffic intersections.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 13 October 2018 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 4
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Althougjh, Mr. Zomberg, I'm not a believer. I adhere to Judaism because I find it the least offensive and because I - and more importantly, my family - are invested in it. Really, I'm more of Rosh Hashanna/Yom Kippur Jew than a strict adherent.
As for traffic intersections... ain't never said I believe in THOSE! The principle, sure - but them drivers is CRAZY.
Mr. Byrne, you're certainly correct in that there is believing something and believing IN something. There are things I believe in, such as mother love (in many species), greed and self-entitlement (or else, Communism might work better), and evolution (but I live too short to prove it, although I see from records sufficient evidence.)
And of course, you've always made clear your hook!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 13 October 2018 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 5
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Eric, to believe IN something is to do so without evidence. There’s plenty of evidence for evolution!
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4522
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| Posted: 13 October 2018 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 6
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Magical thinking. I take it Oprah peddles it along with some silly book titled 'The Secret' meant to show others the magical way positive thoughts attract wealth and health and good fortune, just like it has for Oprah Winfrey. If it doesn't work then you are subconsciously thinking negative and attracting negative things to yourself, or in some original sin you haven't actually even committed you are fallen, same difference.
Chant And Be Happy (endorsed by the two deceased Beatles), still in print after forty some years! If people weren't buying there wouldn't be so many people selling.
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DW Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 June 2012
Posts: 444
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| Posted: 13 October 2018 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 7
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traffic intersections
You didn't use this argument in your post, Eric, but believers sometimes trout it out, claiming one has to have faith that other drivers will obey red lights and not slam into your car when you have the green.
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Kevin Sharp
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 December 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 326
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| Posted: 13 October 2018 at 6:42pm | IP Logged | 8
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...yet he firmly believes fossils were planted by the Devil to deceive us.
***
Of all the "mysterious ways" arguments, this to me is one of the most baffling. If it were true why wouldn't God simply make the fossils vanish? He'd surely have to be aware of the Adversary's "prank"...?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 13 October 2018 at 6:44pm | IP Logged | 9
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God wants us to fail. The weight of evidence is too overwhelming to assume otherwise.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15797
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| Posted: 13 October 2018 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | 10
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For God to exist, I think the most acceptable theory is that they are a fallible god. I'm an atheist, so I don't have to wrestle with these things on a daily basis, but that makes more sense than a god that can do anything, yet allows horrible things to happen. There's also the 'it's all part of some strange, incomprehensible but wonderful plan' line of thought, but that doesn't really add up -- if God can do anything, then God can do anything. Everyone can have wonderful lives and He/She/It can still make any outcome occur.
Edited by Peter Martin on 13 October 2018 at 8:44pm
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Shane Matlock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 August 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 1760
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| Posted: 13 October 2018 at 10:31pm | IP Logged | 11
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One of my favorite jokes is this: "God put dinosaur bones there to test our faith" - my father turning me into an atheist
Of course it would be more turned back into an atheist since that's what everyone is at birth.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4522
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| Posted: 13 October 2018 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | 12
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God wants you on your knees 'worshipping' him! Yes... #youtoo! The original abusive boss. He even discriminated right off kicking 'Adam' and 'Eve' out of his garden (they were Jews). We don't ask what became of 'Lilith', maybe she was those dinosaur bones.
Actually it couldn't be clearer. God wants us to burn oxen flesh and lots of other things too. Know your God LINK. Except for WKRP DJ Dr Johnny Fever... him he wants to become a golf pro.
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