Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
Movies
Byrne Robotics > Movies Page of 2 Next >>
Topic: FANTASTIC BEASTS 2 - and casting backlash (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Petter Myhr Ness
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 2947
Posted: 28 September 2018 at 8:28am | IP Logged | 1  

First of all, I'm looking forward to this film! The first one had its moments, this looks like it might be better.

Second, the latest trailer has caused an uproar because they cast an Asian woman as the snake (or Maledictus) Nagini. 

Like this article

I try not to be insensitive and I strongly support diversity, but is this a sign of things going too far? The argument here seems to be: a) there are too few people of colour in the Wizarding World movies, and b) you can't cast them in roles that might be viewed as negative.

Thoughts?
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 113339
Posted: 28 September 2018 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 2  

I go back, once again, to an article in TV GUIDE in the early Seventies. It discussed how a Black couple had recently appeared in a deodorant ad, and what a great step forward that was in portraying Black Americans on TV.

Up to that point, you see, Black people on television had been mostly White people who happened to be Black -- and they were always the best of the best. They were crusading teachers, honest cops, fearless judges, brilliant doctors, etc. The studios were afraid to show Black people as, well, people. But that deodorant ad announced, subtly, "Black people are human! They sweat!"

In this age of enforced "diversity", we find once again that other races and ethnicities are expected to be portrayed as paradigms. A distinct swing of the pendulum from a long period of being pimps and drug dealers!

But the diversity card is a joker in the deck. I point again to the first THOR movie, where two Norse Gods (!) became Black and Asian in the name of "diversity", while two entirely new characters were both White.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12367
Posted: 28 September 2018 at 11:40am | IP Logged | 3  

I don’t understand why they’d spoil that reveal in a trailer. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: Macau
Posts: 4451
Posted: 28 September 2018 at 4:54pm | IP Logged | 4  

I was listening to a BBC broadcast yesterday and the guests on the show were bemoaning the fact that Hollywood (and Bollywood) do not hire handicapped people as actors. They were complaining about the latest Dwayne Johnson movie, where he only has one leg. They insisted that the role should have been given to a one-legged man. When the host gently pointed out that this was Dwayne Johnson, they responded that the producers should have exhausted all attempts to find a one-legged actor before they "settled" with Johnson (I'm paraphrasing somewhat).

Soon there will be protests at the next Deadpool opening, since Ryan Reynolds, a Canadian, is playing an American. The best thing to do is to completely ignore the bleating but since the press gravitates towards manufactured outrage, it will continue. I read the article about Fantastic Beasts 2. Completely ridiculous.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 113339
Posted: 28 September 2018 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | 5  

Acting, the greatest game of “Let’s Pretend” ever, will submerge and sink under the agendas of ever thinner slices of political correctness.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12367
Posted: 28 September 2018 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | 6  

There are times when it makes sense to hire a disabled actor. John Krasinski insisted upon a deaf actress to play his deaf daughter in A QUIET PLACE, and she both brought authenticity to her role and helped Krasinski more accurately portray a family with a deaf member.

It’s not a black and white issue, and calling it “manufactured outrage” reduces it to such and dismisses the actual minorities affected. 

As for FANTASTIC BEASTS, revealing that Voldemort’s pet snake is an Asian woman has some unfortunate associations with both stereotypes of Asian women being “dragon ladies” and subservient. I think it’s inadvertent and I’m not bothered by it, but I don’t see the point in silencing those that are. It’s a discussion. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 10413
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 12:19am | IP Logged | 7  

We have a fair few people with disabilities on UK tv,
i`m not saying Dwarfism is a disability, but we even
have Warwick Davies hosting a quiz show. I`m not sure an
unknown disabled person would have got the same box
office as Dwayne Johnson, they could have given him a
disabled sidekick, but then people would complain about
a disabled person being relegated to sidekick, they
can`t win!
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12083
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 8  

The actress who is playing this Naghini character is hot, so it's all good. Or am I being a sexist pig? 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15363
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 8:37am | IP Logged | 9  

Acting, the greatest game of “Let’s Pretend” ever, will submerge and sink under the agendas of ever thinner slices of political correctness.
++++++++

This is what I’ve been saying, man! Artistic integrity, organic storytelling, and the art of acting are suffering from this tidal wave of extreme PC-ness. It really creeps me out. What’s more important, good storytelling or “diverse” casting? Are these products entertainment or political propaganda tools? 

People are far too eager these days to pick an extreme to champion and ferociously cling to, that’s for sure. And the Outrage Brigade will find the most ridiculous things to complain about, like not casting a real amputee in SKYSCRAPER. “Diverse” casting far too often boils down to flipping the script and recasting existing characters, because there are “too many” straight, White males in prominent roles. Which is a racist and sexist thing to say, of course. Racism and sexism are racism and sexism, regardless of who it’s aimed at.

Hey, how about casting the best actor for the role, rather than obsessing over surface characteristics and “representation”? What, are young amputees not going to be inspired by seeing an amputee character in an action movie just because Dwayne Johnson is not a real-life amputee? Is that somehow mocking or marginalizing amputees? 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 32778
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 8:47am | IP Logged | 10  

As Michael has said, it's worth the conversation.  Not every casting decision can be boiled down to political correctness just as not every casting decision can be reduced to "the best actor for the role".  More often than not it's about hard dollars, show business in other words, so both "best actor" and diversity aren't even a consideration.  It's a case-by-case basis.  Discussion on the topic shouldn't be dismissed just because you personally find it ridiculous.  

 Greg Kirkman wrote:
And the Outrage Brigade will find the most ridiculous things to complain about...

Says the guy who then goes on a two paragraph rant!
Back to Top profile | search
 
Andy Mokler
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 January 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2558
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 9:39am | IP Logged | 11  

 Matt Reed wrote:
Says the guy who then goes on a two paragraph rant!
What does that have to do with obsessing over surface characteristics and going to extremes?  
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar
Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 32778
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 9:42am | IP Logged | 12  

I'm addressing using the phrase "outrage brigade" as being dismissive by generalizing and lumping all complaints under a single banner prior to going on a two paragraph rant that could, itself, be characterized as being "outraged".  Indicative of a pattern not limited to this discussion.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12367
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 12:10pm | IP Logged | 13  

Regarding SKYSCRAPER, contrary to the misguided belief that it was manufactured outrage from some mythical Extreme PC brigade, the controversy stemmed from an /actual/ amputee actress criticizing the Rock's casting.


Does she represent the opinion of all amputees? No.

Can people disagree with her opinion? Certainly.

Would it be wrong, especially as an able-bodied person, to dismiss and silence her criticism by calling it "manufactured outrage" or "PC-ness" or whatever? Yes.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3086
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 14  

This is the problem with social media.  People were free to have uninformed opinions, get offended, and be outraged before.  However, they didn't have a worldwide platform to vent those views which in turn gave them the impression that anyone cared about those opinions.  If there's something you don't like about a movie or a television show, don't see/watch it.  But this nonsense that things I have a problem with shouldn't be made, or actors I have a problem with shouldn't be cast, is ridiculous.

And ignoring people isn't silencing them.  I have an absolute right to not care about the opinions of most of the world.  Especially about movies.
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne
Avatar
Imaginary X-Man

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 113339
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | 15  

As Aaron Sorkin so aptly put it, the internet has given everyone a turn at the mic, but not everyone has EARNED a turn at the mic.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12367
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 16  

People were free to have uninformed opinions, get offended, and be outraged before.

-----

Wouldn't an amputee actress be considered an informed opinion with regard to the representation and casting of amputees?


Edited by Michael Roberts on 29 September 2018 at 12:33pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3086
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 12:53pm | IP Logged | 17  

Wouldn't an amputee actress be considered an informed opinion with regard to the representation and casting of amputees?
------------------------------------------------------------ -----
Was she privy to the casting process for that film?  Was she up for the role?  Did it come down to her or Johnson, and they picked Johnson?

If the answer to those questions is 'no', as I'm reasonably certain it is, then the answer to your question is also 'no'.

Having a reason to care about something and having an informed opinion about something are not the same thing.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 10413
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | 18  

I read that they`re making an Elephant Man tv series,
will they be casting a person with that condition, if
not will there be outrage?
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12367
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 1:41pm | IP Logged | 19  

Wouldn't an amputee actress be considered an informed opinion with regard to the representation and casting of amputees?
------------------------------------------------------------ -----
Was she privy to the casting process for that film?  Was she up for the role?  Did it come down to her or Johnson, and they picked Johnson?

If the answer to those questions is 'no', as I'm reasonably certain it is, then the answer to your question is also 'no'.

------

Can you reread my question?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12367
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 20  

I read that they`re making an Elephant Man tv series, 
will they be casting a person with that condition, if 
not will there be outrage?

-----

Sure, there are some voices saying that. Can we stop labeling all criticisms as outrage?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 10413
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | 21  

Matt Reed,don`t take this the wrong way, but you come
across as needlessly antagonistic and rude at times.I`m
don`t think Greg deserved your vitriol.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3086
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 22  

Can you reread my question?
------------------------------------------
Can you reread my response?

The fact that someone is disabled does not mean, de facto, that they have done the work to become informed on all the issues involving people with disabilities.  The fact that someone is a disabled actor does not mean, de facto, that they have done the work to become informed on all of the issues involving disabled actors.

And, as I originally responded, even if she is informed on these issues in general (which she may or may not be), that does not mean that she has done the work to become informed on the particular situation, the casting of the lead role in this one particular movie, on which she is issuing an opinion.

I know it is now politically incorrect and elitist to even talk about some people having expertise which other people lack.  I know that we're supposed to pretend that years of work and education don't make a difference, and everyone's opinion is just as valid.  But it just isn't true.  

In particular, identifying as a member of a group does not automatically make your opinions about everything pertaining to that group 'informed'.  People of all social groupings are perfectly capable of being ignorant on any given topic.  And I'll go farther to say, because we are human and finite, all of us are uninformed about a great many more things than we are well-informed.


Edited by Steve De Young on 29 September 2018 at 2:42pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12367
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | 23  


 QUOTE:
The fact that someone is disabled does not mean, de facto, that they have done the work to become informed on all the issues involving people with disabilities.  The fact that someone is a disabled actor does not mean, de facto, that they have done the work to become informed on all of the issues involving disabled actors.

I don't think anyone, even someone who is disabled, would claim they are informed on ALL the issues involving people with disabilities.


 QUOTE:
And, as I originally responded, even if she is informed on these issues in general (which she may or may not be), that does not mean that she has done the work to become informed on the particular situation, the casting of the lead role in this one particular movie, on which she is issuing an opinion.

Would you agree or disagree that on average, an amputee would have more knowledge of the issues that amputees face and how to better represent that than a non-amputee?


 QUOTE:
I know it is now politically incorrect and elitist to even talk about some people having expertise which other people lack.  I know that we're supposed to pretend that years of work and education don't make a difference, and everyone's opinion is just as valid.  But it just isn't true.

On the contrary, I think we're discussing that an amputee's experience as an amputee does make a difference.


 QUOTE:
In particular, identifying as a member of a group does not automatically make your opinions about everything pertaining to that group 'informed'.

Yes, when you state things to such a ridiculous extreme, you can't argue that point. No one is going to be automatically informed about EVERYTHING pertaining to a group. But would you agree or disagree that an average woman would have more knowledge as to some of the issues pertaining to women than the average man?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 11167
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 4:58pm | IP Logged | 24  

Would you agree or disagree that on average, an amputee would have more knowledge of the issues that amputees face and how to better represent that than a non-amputee?
---------------------------------
An amputee will undoubtedly know about specific the ins-and-outs of their own experience. From the article you linked to, Michael:

"I’ve had conversations, recently, with some high-level development executives in Hollywood, and when I’ve challenged them on casting, the response I’ve often gotten is that “a movie won’t get made without a name above the title.” And I get it. That IS a concern: the bottom line."

I agree with her. That is, undoubtedly, what lies behind the Rock's casting.

She goes on to say that she felt erased by Gary Sinise only pretending to be an amputee in Forrest Gump. What would her alternative proposal be? An amputee wearing fake legs for the earlier, able-bodied scenes for Lieutenant Dan? That would be fair enough, but at the same time, wasn't Gary Sinise as well positioned as anyone for these scenes?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12367
Posted: 29 September 2018 at 5:26pm | IP Logged | 25  

She goes on to say that she felt erased by Gary Sinise only pretending to be an amputee in Forrest Gump. What would her alternative proposal be? An amputee wearing fake legs for the earlier, able-bodied scenes for Lieutenant Dan? That would be fair enough, but at the same time, wasn't Gary Sinise as well positioned as anyone for these scenes?

----

I agree that Gary Sinise was just fine as Lieutenant Dan.

The point is not that this person is the final authority or speaks for all amputees. The point is that these arguments come from a real place, from people who have different perspectives, and dismissing those criticisms as "manufactured outrage" or "extreme PCness" is doing that conversation a disservice. In a week where genuine concerns are dismissed as manufactured political outrage, it gets frustrating that people don't see this.
Back to Top profile | search
 

Page of 2 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login