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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I've often said that having multiple titles for a team leads to a fantasy baseball set-up for incoming creative teams..."You've got Rogue? I want Kitty and Cyclops. Why don't you take Beak and figure out a way to reform Selene and put her on the team?" As a kid, it made sense for the Avengers to have a roster turnover occasionally because if Iron Man or Thor needed to be written out for whatever reason, it would take a few characters to replace their power. The X-Men seemed more like a group that shouldn't add a bunch of new characters because the team was more like a family. Of course, today's Marvel Universe makes it seem like every third person has powers.
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Robert Bradley
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 5:55pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

The low point was quite possibly a "Fantastic Four" consisting of Spider-Man, Wolverine, Hulk and Ghost Rider.

Originally, the lineup change in the Avengers (Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man and the Wasp leaving) was to concentrate on characters who didn't have their own books and avoid continuity issues.  But like almost everything else in comics, somebody took the idea and ran with it and now everyone's an Avenger, and all the big names are shoehorned in.

The Avengers to me are still centered around Henry Pym, the Wasp, Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, the Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, the Vision and a few others who come and go (like Quicksilver, Black Panther, Hercules, Wonder Man, Carol Danvers, etc.).

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Brian Hague
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Robert, the Walt Simonson-scripted "New" Fantastic Four with the line-up you mention was a self-aware joke on the tendency Marvel had at the time to use those characters to boost sales where and whenever possible. It also included a one-panel guest appearance by the Punisher. While it all "really" happened, the intent was nevertheless largely humorous. 

Michael, thanks for the background on the Agents.

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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

 Eric Sofer[/quote wrote:
The Legion of Super-Heroes was Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, and Saturn Girl.
The Legion of Super-Heroes was Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, and Saturn Girl.[/quote]

Not exactly... :-)



 Rebecca Jansen wrote:
Marvel Boy/Crusader/Quasar... he was supposed to have changed to someone who just looked like the earlier guy right?


Later retcons aside, Marvel Boy became Crusader and vaporized himself. His bands got passed to another guy who started off as Marvel Man, until some kids laughed at him (seriously) and he changed it to Quasar.
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Bill Dowling
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

When I first read the original Avengers run, I was surprised at how the original Avengers were clearly Thor, Ant Man, Hulk, and Iron Man. 

The Wasp was just Ant-Man’s sidekick in those books. It’s weird reading them with a modern interpretation of the Wasp in mind. 
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 8:24pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 Eric Sofer wrote:
What do you think? Who had too many members? Who didn't have enough?


I don't think not having enough members is really a problem nowadays.

Given the X-Men's mission statement (protect and train the good ones; defend against the bad ones), it makes sense that new mutants would show up from time to time. With the Avengers and the other team books, you want new blood to change things up once in awhile. Give it a couple of decades and...

The problem comes when you're unwilling to let "old blood" go. (Or at the very least, take an extended break.) There are many second stringers who probably should've been written out by now, in favor of newer characters. Let Jean Grey stay dead; Cosmic Boy retire and have his brother take his spot on the Legion; Vision and Scarlet Witch raise their children in Leonia; the Martian Manhunter build a new home for his people; etc., etc. But the fans want them back and they become pros who bring them back but the new characters have THEIR fans too and...

Books with larger casts can get away with having some characters in an A-plot, and others in subplots, but then you need sufficient page count per issue that things don't get overwhelming. I think there's a reason that Paul Levitz' best received run on the Legion (of his three) was the one where he tended to have 25-27 pages to play with.

Depending on how you write the book, I can see Avengers, X-Men and Justice League all working with larger casts (the world being a big place), but there's something to be said for having a consistent line up for awhile and everyone having an army gets to be excessive.
    
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 16 August 2018 at 8:29pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

 Brian Hague wrote:
The Legion has similar issues, especially once we start to ladle in members from all three* continuities and having them all fight side-by-side. It's become a cluster**** for the simple sake of having it become one. We could bring everyone on-panel, so why not do that?


Conceptually, I thought Legion of Three Worlds would be a good "fun once" kind of thing, but that last issue went WAY overboard with the alternates. Just because you have George Perez and CAN do such a thing doesn't mean you should.

(Johns tends to go way overboard with the crowd scenes. Every Titan Ever vs. Dr. Light being a particularly bad example. My personal theory is that he basically had an Earth shattering fangasm when he picked up Crisis on Infinite Earths (esp. the every hero vs. every villain issues and the cover to #12) and he's been trying to recreate that feeling every change he gets since then.)
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 17 August 2018 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Dave P. - let's chat then, shall we, my friend?

The Legion of Super-Heroes: the original three legionnaires were Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, and Saturn Girl. They had one or two adventures together before the next members were added - Triplicate Girl and Phantom Girl. By the time of "Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes", there were indeed, as you noted, several members - but it started with those three in R.J. Brande's office.

The X-Men's purpose was, as I inferred, to find mutants, help train them to use and control their powers, and then help them fit into society with homo sapiens. Professor X often said how he dreamed of a world where mutants and humans lived and worked together in harmony. Join the X-Men, become a milkman, go into politics - as long as it fit into a good society, I think that was all he wanted.

The Avengers started as a strip putting together all Marvel's then-published super heroes except for the Fantastic Four (in their own team obviously) and Dr. Strange and Spider-Man. I don't know why they were left out, save that Stan may have realized the Dr. Strange just wouldn't fit into a team book, and Spider-Man might have been so strong that putting him in TWO books might have diluted his sales. But that's only a guess.

The Justice League of America was much the same, although working on the previous model of the Justice Society. Pretty much every super hero with a strip was a member of the JLA, save for Green Arrow - we do not know why - and Superboy, obviously. Even the stories kinda matched up... Superman and Batman didn't take part very much for the first ten issues or so.

As the DC heroes increased, the JLA was bound to expand, although after 31 issues, they stayed level for a while; with 11 heroes to draw from, the mix-and-match made it easier to writer stories. The Avengers, on the other hand, really did go to the "no strip of their own" feature heroes, save for Cap - and even HE got de-emphasized some after a bit.

I think that the overloaded teams really are a bit much - but the writer who feels he has to use every single hero also is a big part of that problem.

"Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds" seemed to me to be a pretty special even for the crossover. And even at that, Earth-1's Legion was still only half represented. I also feel that the final sequence in Limbo was pretty heavy... but it only was a two page spread, and meself being a LONG time Legion fan, I enjoyed the hell out of it. Even if some of those characters were... a little varied in abilities.*

But that was obviously a one time special event, in the middle of yet another of a series of crises. The Legion has been mistreated over the past few years... I think it was nice to give us LSH fans a little treat.

Still, I wouldn't want it every three months. And some "events" seem to demand such. None for me, thanks.

*Varied in abilities... in that spread of Legionnaires were Earth-1's Supergirl, Comet, Krypto, and Beppo. Three REAL Earth-1 Kryptonians and an Earth-1 pseudo Kryptonian. Seriously... what COULDN'T that group do? We're talking time travel, moving planets, truly super intelligences (almost Brainiac 5 status.... say, level 10 vs. Querl's level 12.) To me, it seemed a little anti-climactic to have those characters available.)
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 17 August 2018 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Not to be contentious, Eric, I promise, but R.J. Brande didn't appear in the Legion comic until 1966, when E. Nelson Bridwell decided the Legion needed an origin. In the team's original 1958 appearance, Lightning Lad, Cosmic Boy, and Saturn Girl were the three members chosen to go back in time and haze Superboy as an initiation prank into their club, but the "flashbacks" to their future time clearly show other members sending them on their way and welcoming them back. From their first appearance, the LSH was larger than just three members. 

In the team's second chronological appearance, they identified themselves to Supergirl as the children of the three heroes who had met Superboy. Since this accommodation was unnecessary for a team of time-travelers, it was quickly forgotten and never spoken of again. Reprints of the story have that panel relettered to erase any confusion. 

Had that been allowed to stand, however, it would have explained any questions as to who those members sitting in the shadows were in the first story. They were members of the parent's group. 

Of course, it would have been a continuity nightmare to constantly keep track of which members of which team met Superboy and which met Supergirl... Later, when the Legion of Super-Villains showed up, in costumes which exactly matched those of the parents, but with slightly different powers, no doubt a story would have been written which explained that members of the first group had flown through an evil space cloud, reversing their essential good natures, altering their powers and personalities...

Fortunately, none of that was necessary since the idea of two generations of Legionnaires was done away with pretty quickly. Unfortunately, those other members still exist in that first story, so we're left with the idea that the LSH's first appearance occurred later than some of their other appearances, and they didn't go back in time to visit Superboy and Supergirl until after they'd gained some of their other members.

Which still leaves us with the question of why they switched costumes then for that one 1958 story and switched back again to go meet Supergirl... Which is just the sort of silliness that results when one tries to hammer together a continuous, single story out of multiple incidents which were never intended to fit together so closely. 

So, the official in-story origin of the team in Adventure #350 places Garth, Imra, and Rokk as the founding members at the start of the team, yes, but the actual flow of events as published from 1958 forward has always portrayed them as members of a larger organization. Up until that origin story, the Legion was never shown to be comprised of only three members. It was always a somewhat larger group, even if the exact membership was nebulous at times. 

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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 17 August 2018 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Yes, there are other Legionaries shown but not named in Adventure Comics #247.

As well as the panel Dave Phelps posted, see the backs of four heads in the third panel of this page?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ccKB8IuNcOo/UAy1_8uByxI/AAAAAAAAo7 4/ZywM7qBkpms/s1600/adventure+comics+247+007.jpg


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 17 August 2018 at 3:19pm
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Dave Phelps
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Posted: 17 August 2018 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 Eric Sofer wrote:
The Legion of Super-Heroes: the original three legionnaires were Cosmic Boy, Lightning Lad, and Saturn Girl. They had one or two adventures together before the next members were added - Triplicate Girl and Phantom Girl. By the time of "Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes", there were indeed, as you noted, several members - but it started with those three in R.J. Brande's office.


Well, I mainly posted the panel as a gag, but the point was that as early as their first appearance the Legion was more than just the three of them. (See Brian Hague's post for more.)

Incidentally, Chameleon Boy, COlossal Boy, Invisible Kid and Star Boy all showed up before Triplicate Girl and Phantom Girl did. (In terms of first appearances not canon.) The two girls debuted in the story with Supergirl's second try at joining the team. Bouncing Boy, Sun Boy, Brainiac 5 and Shrinking Violet also debuted that one, even though three of them would be stuck having to join between stories.

And while we're being trivial, Lightning Lad's status as a founder was a retcon. In an origin flashback early in the Adventure Comics run (#308 or thereabouts), he was hoping his new power would win him membership on the team:




 QUOTE:
The Avengers started as a strip putting together all Marvel's then-published super heroes except for the Fantastic Four (in their own team obviously) and Dr. Strange and Spider-Man. I don't know why they were left out, save that Stan may have realized the Dr. Strange just wouldn't fit into a team book, and Spider-Man might have been so strong that putting him in TWO books might have diluted his sales. But that's only a guess.


Doctor Strange had just finished a two issue try out in Strange Tales so it was a little early to use him. Stan has said they had decided that Spider-Man worked best as a loner by then, but I wonder if the fact that he was one of the few characters to have a series all to himself may have been a factor. Most of the others still had back-ups (we still had a month before Tales of Asgard even showed up) except for the Hulk, who of course was "between series" at the time.


 QUOTE:
The Justice League of America was much the same, although working on the previous model of the Justice Society.


Not really. The Society was a lot choosier, especially at the beginning. :-) Had to have your own series, only two features from each anthology book permitted to be members at the same time (Johnny Thunder managed to sneak in as a mascot of sorts until the Flash left) and if you had your own book you got dropped from the line-up and made an honorary member. (Aside from Wonder Woman, who was only allowed to participate in crowd scenes, with rare exceptions.) With dropping page counts and the brief split between DC and All-American, the rules changed a bit, but that was later.


 QUOTE:
Pretty much every super hero with a strip was a member of the JLA, save for Green Arrow - we do not know why - and Superboy, obviously.


Green Arrow was promptly corrected, but Superboy technically WAS a member of the team. :-)


 QUOTE:
Even the stories kinda matched up... Superman and Batman didn't take part very much for the first ten issues or so.


True enough, the concern about overexposure did inform the first couple of years of JLA. Although they certainly changes their tune when the Batman TV series came out. ("Now how do we make sure he can part of the Zatanna story...?" "I got it, let's say this with he fought in Detective awhile ago was Zatanna in disguise!")


 QUOTE:
As the DC heroes increased, the JLA was bound to expand, although after 31 issues, they stayed level for a while; with 11 heroes to draw from, the mix-and-match made it easier to writer stories.


Well, they kind of ran out of super-heroes to add for awhile there. Sidekicks were a no-no (poor Hawkgirl), Metamorpho said no... I think the Elongated Man was the only one who met the qualifications (superhero with ongoing series) who was left hanging. Prince Ra-Man, maybe?


 QUOTE:
"Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds"... But that was obviously a one time special event, in the middle of yet another of a series of crises. The Legion has been mistreated over the past few years... I think it was nice to give us LSH fans a little treat.


I wish I agreed with you. The series certainly had its moments, but there was just a little too much focus on the Conner Kent Superboy and Bart Allen Kid Flash for my taste. With so many characters jockeying for a moment (particularly given that two of the incarnations were going to be retired for the duration), letting the Teen Titans invade bugged me. Ah well.   
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Ray Brady
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Posted: 17 August 2018 at 6:57pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

When I was a kid, the Legion of Super-Heroes was truth in advertising. They were a LEGION, with a whopping TWO DOZEN members running around. Writers and artists on the series actually complained about having to keep track of so many characters!

It was at some point in the late 90s that I realized they had been handily surpassed in sheer quantity by the Justice League, the Avengers and the X-Men, with the Teen Titans coming up close behind.
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