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Topic: Star Trek: Picard ~ Season 1 SPOILERS begin pg 13 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 20 February 2020 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Re: Cursegate, it bothers me a little more on Picard than on Discovery.  On Discovery, they've established that Tilly is a bit of a pottymouth and that past supervisors have considered it unprofessional.  So that makes the language she uses a part of her character and makes her seem more real, as Matt describes.  So far in Picard, the expletives have seemed just sort of 'dropped in' to me.  Though, to be fair, I only have a vague idea of who most of the new characters are so it may eventually make perfect sense.

Matt's right that real people curse.  But its also true that real people curse differently and its all part of their regular speech pattern.  I have a friend who pretty much doesn't curse.  So if you hear a 'Holy Crap!' out of him the situation is dire.  I have other friends who publically keep it clean but in private conversation curse like sailors.  I had a friend in college who never dropped an f-bomb but seemed to end every other sentence with "and shit."  

So all that is to say, once I feel that language...or sex or violence for that matter...is part of the characters and story onscreen, I'm down for whatever.  But if any of it feels gratuitous or just 'because we can', it pulls me out of the story.
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John Harrison
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Posted: 20 February 2020 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I have to wonder after watching the last episode if it was a back door pilot for a
Seven of Nine series. And as someone who watched Voyager how was Icheb
in the Alpha Quandrant?
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Rick Senger
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Posted: 20 February 2020 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I haven't even seen the eps in question but if you don't mind I still have an opinion.  My overall instinct is that Starfleet represents the best and the brightest individuals and that with occasional "exceptional" exceptions cursing shouldn't be the norm for its officers.  Starfleet officers are human (some of them anyway), sure, but five decades of  Trek until this particular iteration has featured very little cursing and the stories and characters have gotten along just fine without it.  Kirk saying "let's get the hell out of here" had immense added payoff power precisely because it was so unusual and referenced one of the most painful moments of his life to that point.

Cursing for emphasis is not a nod to realism or edginess for me, it's just cursing.  I'm far from a prude and use profanity in my everyday life.  I have no problem with it in movies, tv and mass media in general but I'd be just as happy if Star Trek and the hope and idealism it seeks to essay rises above regular profanity precisely because Trek is supposed to represent that better world to which we all aspire.  That world doesn't have to be all Ned Flanders-y and "hooray for everything" and we all have our weak moments but I do think Trek curses work best when they're reserved for special occasions ala Kirk in "City On The Edge Of Forever."   That curse wasn't cheap or patronizing; it was a richly earned and powerful payoff.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 20 February 2020 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

The further the show progresses, the more off it seems to me.

If you want to a story that holds up a mirror to the intolerance and injustices of our time, that's fine and dandy, and the world of Star Trek is a decent place to do it. The show has a history of such things, as does sci-fi as a whole. If you want to use Starfleet itself to show that intolerance, it doesn't seem such a great fit, however. If you want to show how shitty we are being now, by showing how shitty things are for mankind in the future, Star Trek also doesn't seem a great fit. A core aspect of Star Trek has long been 'we found a better way'. Why choose to tell a Star Trek story that inherently fights against one of the core mantras of the 'franchise' (hate that word, but show doesn't really work in this context).

Furthermore, the central character of Picard is being written contrary to the established character. Yes, people can change in real life. Yes, people can get brain tumours that change their personalities, but when it comes to writing the continuing journeys of a character in serial fiction, these seem very ill-advised options to take. Previously established: Picard is uncomfortable around/doesn't like children. Picard is a skilled diplomat, rational and calm. Picard works with Data, but isn't really a close friend. LaForge is established as Data's best friend.

Here we have a Picard that dotes on a child. A Picard that is rash and truculent. A Picard who behaves as if Data was his best bud, who is almost obessed with him, while LaForge isn't nowhere to be seen. Not even worth consulting with Geordi on any of this?

And then the general thrust of the adventure. A motley crew on a desperate, unauthorised mission, guided by a wing and a prayer. That sounds kind of cool. Could be a good story. But is Star Trek really the place to have that as the centre of the story?  
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 20 February 2020 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Here we have a Picard that dotes on a child. A Picard that is rash and truculent. A Picard who behaves as if Data was his best bud, who is almost obessed with him, while LaForge isn't nowhere to be seen. Not even worth consulting with Geordi on any of this? 

——

All that is sort of the point. You are looking at a man who is in a stage of his life where he’s unfulfilled, and he’s looking back at his old life and realizing that there were a lot of things that he didn’t appreciate. I mean, that’s how TNG ended. Picard joining the crew for poker and realizing that he should have been doing that all along instead of trying to be proper. It why the show that he still has the “Picard Day” banner, because despite his discomfort with kids, which he still has according the candid Romulan warrior nun, he’s learned not to take that attention from kids for granted. Why wouldn’t Picard be obsessed with Data? I know a lot of people try to forget NEMESIS, but Data sacrificed his life to save Picard. He wasn’t just a long-time member of the bridge crew who died in the course of duty. He died to save Picard. 

Is he a different Picard from the one in TNG? Yes, definitely. Is he a Picard inconsistent from the one in TNG? Absolutely not. 
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 20 February 2020 at 7:28pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

When your argument includes the suggestion that Picard in the final episode of TNG realises he should have been behaving differently for the entire run of the show, that seems like special pleading.

I'd be interested in whether you think Starfleet as portrayed here is consistent with what has gone before.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 20 February 2020 at 8:28pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Did I just see a hologram of Rog 2000 get it's head knocked off in tonight's episode? :^O

I wanted to see Seven Of Nine meet Picard and then got a bonus cameo I think!
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 20 February 2020 at 8:35pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply


 QUOTE:
When your argument includes the suggestion that Picard in the final episode of TNG realises he should have been behaving differently for the entire run of the show, that seems like special pleading.

Not really. Picard changes throughout the show. He changes after “Best of Both Worlds”. He changes after “The Inner Light”. He changes after “The Chain of Command”. Bringing up “All Good Things” is not proving a point by citing an exception. It’s pointing out how the character had developed and how that point of development leads to how the character is presented in PICARD and how Picard is not the static character that you suggest. That’s not special pleading at all.


 QUOTE:
I'd be interested in whether you think Starfleet as portrayed here is consistent with what has gone before.

So far I haven’t seen anything in PICARD with regard to Starfleet that hasn’t been done in a Star Trek series before. Unless you want to quibble about “Fuck”, but we know that swearing still exists from the TNG movies, so even that is not inconsistent.

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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 21 February 2020 at 1:00am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

 Michael Roberts wrote:
Why wouldn’t Picard be obsessed with Data? I know a lot of people try to forget NEMESIS, but Data sacrificed his life to save Picard. He wasn’t just a long-time member of the bridge crew who died in the course of duty. He died to save Picard.

Further to that, it was Data who accessed and broke through the layers of Borg programming which allowed Picard to fight back from his end in "The Best of Both Worlds".   It was Picard who stood up for both Data and Lal's rights as sentient beings ("The Measure of a Man", "The Offspring").   Without Data, Picard would have never met Guinan for the first time ("Time's Arrow", from his point of view).  I'd say there's more of a bond between Picard and Data then there is between, say, Picard and Riker.      

 Peter Martin wrote:
... LaForge isn't nowhere to be seen. Not even worth consulting with Geordi on any of this?

Geordi is conspicuous by his abscence, which they hopefully will address eventually.  It's possible he perished in the FC Day attack on U-P though they do namedrop him in an earlier episode -- and I believe the (debatably canonical) supplementary material has revealed he's alive.   In the "All Good Things" timeline it's implied Geordi had retired from Starfleet, and interestingly his wife (Leah, now there's a loaded name) was the director of Daystrom.  Hmmm.

 John Harrison wrote:
And as someone who watched Voyager how was Icheb in the Alpha Quandrant?

Icheb was on board Voyager when it returned from the Delta Quadrant in "Endgame" and had been remotely enrolled in Starfleet Academy for several months before the ship returned.   There's a sly VOY reference dropped in this weeks episode with the line "What happened to your cortical implant?".   Icheb donated his implant to Seven when hers failed and improvised a new one in VOY "Imperfection".   Yet another reason why Seven considers Icheb to be kin and why she was so hot to punish the implant poachers.
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 21 February 2020 at 1:34am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

"Isn`t nowhere" Peter, you`ve been watching too muuch
Star Trek! ;-)

Edited by Bill Collins on 21 February 2020 at 12:12pm
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John Harrison
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Posted: 21 February 2020 at 6:31am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Icheb was on board Voyager when it returned from the Delta Quadrant in
"Endgame" and had been remotely enrolled in Starfleet Academy for several
months before the ship returned.   


*****

Guess my memory is fuzzy I thought he was returned to his parents at some
point prior to Endgame.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 21 February 2020 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

 John Harrison wrote:
Guess my memory is fuzzy I thought he was returned to his parents at some point prior to Endgame

You aren't mistaken, he was returned in VOY "Child's Play" but it was later revealed his parents had genetically altered him to be a weapon against the Borg and he ended up returning to Voyager afterward.  

You can see the potential issues this presents for a series like PICARD -- Icheb was basically a remix of Hugh and they overlapped on a number of story points, right down to the ethical implications of using an unknowing child as a weapon.  There's even physical similarities between actors Manu Intiraymi (Icheb) and Jonathon Del Arco (Hugh).   I guess they could have ignored the character entirely so it was nice to see them acknowledge a little bit of obscure VOYAGER trivia.  In one sense Seven and Icheb's releationship is very much a mirror for that of Picard and Hugh -- child and parent, so it has a lot of thematic resonance for the things they are exploring in PICARD. 

Manu was cast as Icheb in Tim Russ' iindependant STAR TREK: RENEGADES (and appeared in the pilot) but when CBS clamped down on TREK indie productions after the AXINAR debacle RENEGADES was one of the first casualities.  

Strangely, Manu was not cast as Icheb in the PICARD cameo.   As far as I'm aware the actor is still active in Hollywood.


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 21 February 2020 at 2:57pm
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