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Topic: Star Trek: Picard ~ Season 1 SPOILERS begin pg 13 Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 01 February 2020 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I'm pretty sure the service androids on Mars have Bruce Maddox's face and though the man is namedropped they haven't shown a picture of him in the series yet, possibly to keep that revelation under wraps for an upcoming episode (new viewers will have no idea and most of the older viewers will vaguely remember him).   We've seen other artifical life inventors immortalize themselves in their creations (and it's always a younger, more ideal looking version of themselves too) -- eg, Soong, Zimmerman.   In Zimmerman's case his EMHs were repurposed without his knowledge for use in menial and dangerous jobs that humans refused to do -- mining and cleaning toilets all while wearing the smiling young face of their creator.   Now Maddox is the face of the android revolt on Mars.   No wonder the guy went into hiding!

Nice touch having the names of the service androids tattooed on their foreheads so humans could easily tell the identical androids apart -- reminds me of Red Dwarf for some reason.
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Rick Senger
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Posted: 01 February 2020 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

While Maddox was rather one note as originally written, "Measure of a Man" was easily one of the brighter spots in the mostly dreary S2 of TNG.  The question of of whether there is a difference between human and AI "sentience" has become more relevant than ever and as long as the show doesn't devolve into nothing but a lengthy soapbox / referendum on the subject, I think it is an area worthy of some exploration. 
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 02 February 2020 at 1:24am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

 Rob Ocelot wrote:

Yeah, not a fan of 'shit' and 'feck' in STAR TREK but the higher ups have determined that the kids like to say these kind of naughty words on their Facestagram accounts so we shoved some into the script in a bid to appeal to that magical younger demographic.

I've got zero problem with it and I'm far from the "magical younger demographic".  The fact that I use "fuck" in daily conversation means that "shit" doesn't really translate to me as a "naughty" word.  I just think it's how people actually speak.  To put some sort of high minded morality on language or to say that only kids too young to understand restraint use words older adults think are verboten is alien to me.  The puritanical knee-jerk reaction to curse words is utterly confounding to me.  I just came off of a doc series where the people we were following were a part of a Catholic institution.  They swore like sailors.  Didn't make them any less "religious" to me nor did it impugn their character in any way.  It made them...human.  
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Mike Benson
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Posted: 02 February 2020 at 7:56am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Not like it hasn’t been established that swearing still exists in this time.  They aren’t throwing it around frequently and in that scene, it was used effectively.   Admiral wasn’t playing around.   
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 02 February 2020 at 11:36am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

 Matt Reed wrote:
I've got zero problem with it and I'm far from the "magical younger demographic".  The fact that I use "fuck" in daily conversation..

So what do you do when you need to emphasize a point you're trying to make or let others know you mean business?  Say "fuck" and "cunt" a few more times and wave your arms hysterically?   Punch them?

Fact is, STAR TREK rarely had swearing or cursing and the times it did was to highlight something specific because it stuck out like a sore thumb.   Kirk and Spock encountering 'colourful metaphors' while visiting the past.   Data trying out curse words like they were hats because he thought it would help him blend with humans better.  Picard on at least one occasion muttered an english curse word in french under his breath (probably to get around network censorship at the time) because he was in a dire situation.   It's the handful of times this has happened on STAR TREK that makes it significant; if it happened every other episode the point they were trying to make would be diluted and lost.

So why then does STAR TREK need constant swearing inserted into it now?   

Does the lack of network S&Ps for streaming services mean that you should use swearing just because you can?   Sadly, I think one of the demographic metrics they use for television nowadays is 'Do the people talk enough like I do when I go out back for my smoke break?'

Does a Starfleet Admiral dropping an F-bomb to another Admiral in a contemptuous manner help me relate to the scene better?   Does it make her 'one of us'?   

Maybe it does.   

One of the more subtle threads they are pulling at in PICARD is we are shown a civilization in decline yet the majority of the population and the leadership seem to think things are fine, and in fact they believe things are better than they ever were.   Not only have they been shown the door, they have unwittingly escorted themselves half way through it.  They can understand when an overt existential threat like the Borg presents itself and what that potentially means to their way of life if they don't fight it.  What about when the threat is less visible?  (episodes like TNGs "The Drumhead" and any of the DS9 episodes dealing with covert shape shifters are good examples of these divisive and isolationist attitudes already within Starfleet).  What better way to demonstrate how the Federation as a society is falling apart from the inside out than by showing the lack of respect individuals (and those in authority) have for one another in the words they choose to communicate with.  

"They talk just like we do" then has some added layers of resonance, doesn't it? 

...and a very hearty Fuck You to the man who always feels the need to paint the viewpoints of others as the extreme opposite of theirs to make his case.   Your desire to turn every thread you grace into a sociopolitical religious mire of bickering borders on the pathological.   

(and yes, it's significant that I've used and emphasized foul language to communicate that point because I rarely use those kinds of words here)


Edited by Rob Ocelot on 02 February 2020 at 12:48pm
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 02 February 2020 at 1:02pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Touched a nerve I see.  Far be it from me to ever dare question a thought or opinion you might have, Rob, and then expound on it.  Though there is some validity in what you post above, it's clouded by bookends that show having an actual adult discussion with you is fairly out of the question.  
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Mike Benson
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Posted: 03 February 2020 at 5:36am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Except the swearing isn’t “constant...”
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Dave Kopperman
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Posted: 03 February 2020 at 7:42am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

For some reason, this felt appropriate to post here in light of the language debate: https://youtu.be/NtLTmg2vCzY
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Kevin Brown
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Posted: 05 February 2020 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

So why then does STAR TREK need constant swearing inserted into it now?

*******************

It's far from constant.  It's far less than any normal conversation the average human being would have in real life.  And I'm not just talking about "fuck", but "shit", "damn", "hell", etc., as well.  But let's not use that "c" word, ok?  That, to my line of thinking, is wholly inappropriate in any conversation.
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Eric Smearman
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Posted: 05 February 2020 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

"Except the swearing isn't 'constant'..."

Indeed. I'm not crazy about profanity in TREK but it's been
done pretty sparingly. Check out DCU's TITANS and DOOM
PATROL if you want to see some gratuitous cursing.

Edited by Eric Smearman on 05 February 2020 at 8:11pm
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Jason Scott
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Posted: 08 February 2020 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Oft! Let's not mention Doom Patrol here. The cursing in that show actually made me want to stop watching it altogether. (Seriously every second word out of Robotman, seemed to be the 'f-word'. Not smart and very tiresome.)

Picard certainly isn't that bad for it. Though yeah, it does always seem a little weird in Star Trek.
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 08 February 2020 at 6:40pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

The fact that I use "fuck" in daily conversation
means that "shit" doesn't really translate to me as a
"naughty" word. I just think it's how people actually
speak.

------------------------------------
OK, but does that mean it fits in Star Trek?

I'm sure there are people who in daily conversation
praise God or question the validity of evolution.
Should that also be spouted from the mouths of Star
Fleet officers?

Furthermore, there's decades worth of precedent of how
Star Fleet officers and Romulans behave and speak. Is
it wrong to note that it doesn't fit when continuing
stories of such characters behave in a jarringly
different way?

For example, when Picard says 'engage' in a way that's
like ooooh, I'm about to say my catchphrase
rather than in a matter-of-fact, let's get on with
business way that he always has in the past, it jars.
And it's the same with an Admiral of Star Fleet
shouting 'fucking' in the face of a retired Admiral.
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