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Ted Downum
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Joined: 21 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 8:46am | IP Logged | 1
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This topic has come up sometimes among my comic-reading friends, and I was reminded of it recently when someone pointed out that Cloak and Dagger now have their own TV series.
Fans tend to rate comic characters, however loosely, on tiers: top-level and everybody else. There's a generational/subjective gray area between those levels--I know somebody who insists that Daredevil is a B-lister, which I think is silly. But I think most fans would agree on broad A and B categories. Superman and Spider-Man are A-listers, whereas, say (to pick out two random examples) Adam Strange and Moon Knight inhabit the next rung down. Same applies to villains: Doctor Doom and the Joker, versus the Beetle and Felix Faust.
So, a two-part question:
1) Who are your favorite B-list or oddball superheroes or supervillains? Think of characters who civilians, even in our superhero-glutted age, probably wouldn't recognize, but longtime comic readers probably would. Heroes or villains, doesn't matter.
2) Are some characters inherently B-listers? Or have they simply never had the right creative team, or the right stroke of luck, or the right moment in the cultural spotlight? Could Black Canary ever have been as big as Wonder Woman? If JB and Chris Claremont had had a legendary run on, say, the Eternals, would the Eternals have become gigantic?
For me:
1) Metamorpho. He has enjoyed a long career on the fringes of the DCU, but--thanks to the slightly oddball nature of his powers and his look--he's a character I can't imagine ever moving off the fringe.
2) Yes, some characters are inherently B-listers. That doesn't make them weak or uninteresting; it just might be that they're too evocative of other, more famous characters, or they're somewhat goofy, like my man Rex Mason. However, I also think that some characters haven't had the luck--the right artists and writers, the right moment in the zeitgeist.
What do you think?
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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
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Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 8:57am | IP Logged | 2
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Great questions, Mr Downum!
Who are your favorite B-list or oddball superheroes or supervillains?
Ambush Bug. You know, if the DCEU ever wanted to rival Fox's Deadpool, they could do worse than consider Ambush Bug. He may be a hard sell, but comic readers aside, did any civilians know of Deadpool prior to the 2016 film?
Are some characters inherently B-listers?
I'd like to think that the right creative team could do that. But then I see characters like Hydro-Man - a character I've never gravitated towards - and I think, 'Yeah, that guy will always be a B-lister.'
But who knows? A top writer/artist may do a Hydro-Man mini-series that'll knock my socks off. I do NOT mean that facetiously. It's improbable, but not necessarily impossible.
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Robert Bradley
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Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4824
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 3
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Who are your favorite B-list or oddball superheroes or supervillains?
Hercules, the Black Knight, Clea, Mar-Vell, Adam Warlock, Nighthawk
Are some characters inherently B-listers?
Yes - although I think most can be made interesting in the right hand there are some like Speedball who will never be taken seriously without drastic changes to the character. I think they can still be interesting characters, but never A-listers. (Although the use of the Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man and their rise to prominence probably means any decent hero in the right circumstances can be marketed successfully).
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 4
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Who are your favorite B-list or oddball superheroes or supervillains?••• The original X-Men. Hear me out. Altho the title has evolved over the years into one of Marvel's biggest francises, it was not always so. The original series poked along, ever on the verge of cancellation. Why? Because it was a group of second stringers. Wonderful characters, among my favorites, ever, but none able to hold a solo series (at least not for long). ++++ Are some characters inherently B-listers? ••• Of course -- tho rarely deliberately so!
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4494
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 5
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It depends a bit too much on your subjective scale perhaps. I think for the '60s and early '70s The X-Men were either B or just making the A list. Daredevil too, at times. Doctor Strange, The Sub-Mariner, Ant-man, The Silver Surfer, Ms. Marvel, Ka-Zar, Black Panther, Man Thing, Warlock, Captain Marvel, She Hulk, Ghost Rider; they all had pretty solid runs at least, but also cancellations, stretches of being bi-monthly or sharing a title, more of grey are between A and B?.
Solid B-listers I like even though they probably are and maybe always will be 'losers' are; Man Wolf, Deathlok, and The Cat/Tigra. I'm not sure where Cloak & Dagger or Power Pack sit, but I like both from the '80s comics I read quite a lot. Moon Knight never did anything for me and seems the quintessential top of the B-listers. Too derivative of The Shadow and Batman.
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Philippe Negrin
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Joined: 01 August 2007
Location: France
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 11:07am | IP Logged | 6
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All characters are B listers or A listers depending on the writers. Think Alpha Flight after JB's departure...and don't get me started on the The Gardians Of the Galaxy ! Some years ago a friend who only recently discovered them asked me about them since he knew I am interested in comics. WellI had nothing to say. Who ever had anything to say about them before... ???
spelling and tense
Edited by Philippe Negrin on 19 June 2018 at 11:08am
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Peter Martin
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 12:53pm | IP Logged | 7
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The Beetle is a B-list villain that I have long had a fondness for (with the newer version of his costume, that didn't have the long fingers).
Also had a soft-spot for Captain Marvel (the version with the Nega Bands), probably stemming from a reprint I had of Marvel Team-Up #16. That issue was the first appearance of the Basilisk, who was another B-list villain that I liked... Until some rascal killed him off!
I think that there are some characters that are likely to be stuck in the B-list no matter who works on them.
With all due respect to Iron First, he seems to have been stuck on the B-list despite top class talent and being given a screen version. There are some who are stuck that way, though, who I suppose must have the potential to jump to the A-list if the right creative team or just a quirk of fate comes their way.
Edited by Peter Martin on 19 June 2018 at 12:54pm
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Brian Floyd
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Joined: 07 July 2006
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | 8
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Mar-Vell. Haven't cared for any version of Captain Marvel since, and that includes Carol. Her Ms. Marvel costume looked miles better than what she has worn since changing names.
She-Hulk. Should NOT be a B-lister, and sadly most writers since JB have not handled her well at all.
Ghost Rider - Either Johnny Blaze or Danny Ketch/Noble Kale (but I hate the last costume the latter version had). The new version's backstory is awful (he's basically possessed by his serial killer uncle?!) and GR driving a car just doesn't feel right.
Ant-Man. Scott Lang has a lot of unused potential.
Hank Pym. One of Marvel's oldest heroes deserves better. His powers are versatile (he can shrink and grow objects, not just himself), and he's one of the MU's smartest minds. (Incidentally, I prefer him as Giant Man or Goliath when it comes to costumes) I thought the use of him in WCA where he didn't used a costumed identity and just pulled gadgets out and shrunk and grew them as needed was brilliant.
For DC characters, I'll have to think about it. Aside from Batman and the JSA, I was always more of a Marvel fan.
Edited by Brian Floyd on 20 June 2018 at 2:48pm
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Doug Centers
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 5:06pm | IP Logged | 9
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1) Who are your favorite B-list or oddball superheroes or supervillains? Hero- Wonder Man, Adam Strange Villain- The Prowler and the Beetle, they were 2 of my first villains.
2) Are some characters inherently B-listers? JB stated it perfectley "rarely deliberately". Guys like Radio-Active Man and The Cobra took on Thor ALONE in their first appearances. And Stilt-Man was a true super villain in his early appearances.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 10
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These always make me smile a little when they show up (or when I pull out some back issues).
At Marvel
NIGHTHAWK--The Defenders era version, whether it was Gerber's, Wein's, or Kraft's. BLOODSTONE DOC SAMSON THUNDRA PALADIN--More for his design and name than anything that's actually been done with him thus far. STAR-LORD--The original, as done by Moench & Sienkiewicz or Colan (or Claremont & Byrne too!), not the bug-faced klutzy new guy...and the two HAVE been proclaimed to be two separate characters now. (I would add MOON KNIGHT by them too, but at least he's had a few dozen great issues.)
At DC PHANTOM STRANGER HAWKWOMAN--Shayera only! Why DC would dump (kill? erase from existence?) one of their five major female characters is beyond me. OMAC--Byrne and Wein/Perez that one time really showed his potential. THE CREEPER--The super-star that never was! I just think if Ditko did him at Marvel, he would be at least as big as Daredevil now. CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN CAPTAIN COMET DOLL MAN
I think all of these deserve more of a shot (and not a reboot) than they've mostly gotten in the past.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 19 June 2018 at 9:48pm
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Greg Kirkman
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 9:56pm | IP Logged | 11
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The original X-Men. Hear me out. Altho the title has evolved over the years into one of Marvel's biggest francises, it was not always so. The original series poked along, ever on the verge of cancellation. Why? Because it was a group of second stringers. Wonderful characters, among my favorites, ever, but none able to hold a solo series (at least not for long). ++++++++
Totally agree with this. When I finally sat down and read the original run in its entirety, a decade ago, it was clear to me that X-MEN was a lower-tier book. A cult book. Not at the same level as FANTASTIC FOUR or AVENGERS. It only became an A-level book just before it was cancelled, when Thomas and Adams had their run.
BUT, I love those characters. In my heart of hearts, the original team is still my favorite. Five teens and a man with a dream!
Daredevil is another one. Great concept, great character, but the early stories are sort of a B- or C-list, poor man’s Spider-Man. A lot of people tend to think that Daredevil wasn’t good until Miller came along, and while I wouldn’t say that’s true, the book was never top-tier until well into its publication history.
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Eric Jansen
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| Posted: 19 June 2018 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | 12
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I think these really show the need for a strong foundation. In the 60's especially, that meant 4 or 5 solid years with the same creative team.
For X-MEN, I liked the Lee/Kirby issues, but once it lost Kirby, the book faltered, and then more when Stan left. I really do like Roy Thomas, but his X-MEN work (pre-Adams) is probably his worst.
Bill Everett and Joe Orlando were both very talented, but DAREDEVIL's uneven first steps probably would have doomed it if not for Wally Wood stepping in, redesigning the outfit and giving the book a solid look and feel--something for later creators to look back on. Frank Miller's run could have been a direct sequel to Wood's--forgetting everything in-between (except Bullseye of course)--and not lost a thing.
So, a great character/concept is one thing, but you really need a good creative team to show interest in it and guide the "toddler" through its growing stages.
Just looking at my post above, I find myself wondering how great PALADIN would have been if Moench and Sienkiewicz had devoted their efforts to him instead of MOON KNIGHT. Or if Perez had joined Len Wein on a few years of OMAC instead of joining Wolfman on NEW TEEN TITANS.
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