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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 13 June 2018 at 1:37pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

And here's an interesting map:


What do you think?
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Ted Downum
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Posted: 13 June 2018 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

That is pretty impressive!
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Doug Centers
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Posted: 13 June 2018 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Well, I think we need to include STNV planets. After all it is canon now right?

I can think of Pluul and whatever that palindrome planet was called.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 13 June 2018 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

My fun was looking at the map and trying to recollect all the episodes.

I hope someone does a STAR WARS map. And one for DC and Marvel.
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Matthew Chartrand
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Posted: 13 June 2018 at 6:42pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply




  A 2D map of space seems wrong. How much of the galaxy does known space in Star Trek cover?
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Trevor Krysak
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Posted: 13 June 2018 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

So the Klingons and Romulans had to cross through Federation space to help fight the Dominion in DS9? That's quite the journey. Based on the scale provided that's roughly 2000 light years. Voyager was 70,000 light years from Earth and that equated to a journey of several decades.

But I suppose that is all part of the whole suspension of disbelief aspect leads us to want to ignore many of the oddities of the Trek universe.
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Ted Downum
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Trevor, for some reason, the first thing I thought about when I looked at this map was the first episode of Enterprise, in which the NX-01 was supposed to get to Qo'noS in four days at warp 4.5. Just eyeballing this map, that seems even more of a stretch than I thought at the time. That distance looks like about 2000 light years...at warp 4.5, which is 91.125 c (if you accept the traditional view that warp speed equals warp factor cubed x c), that would take Archer and company more like 22 years.

But, as you pointed out, suspension of disbelief is unusually important when you watch Trek. Cool as they are, I've always resisted maps of the Trek universe, simply because space is so big--and, in Star Trek, it's also supposed to correspond in a broad way to real space. "Pinning down" the geography saps the fun out of imagining it yourself (in contrast to, say, an invented high-fantasy world, where a map is PART of the fun of imagining it for yourself).

That's what I think, anyway. (And I also think that no way is the Klingon homeworld "really" that close to Earth!)


Edited by Ted Downum on 14 June 2018 at 8:41am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 10:09am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

STAR TREK hasn't had a good grip on the size and shape of the Galaxy since the beginning. Christopher Pike tells the Talosians he's from "the other end of this Galaxy". The other end of a lens shape? Did he mean the other side, i.e. on the opposite side of the Core, which itself is 30,000 light years from Earth? And the crash survivors were supposed to have gotten there before the development of "time warp" technology?

As a teen I used to wonder about the size and shape of the Romulan empire, give how often Star Fleet ships approached and even crossed the Neutral Zone. (The obvious Vietnam metaphor seemed to be forgotten by later writers.) Didn't help that the Franz Joseph plans showed the Empire as a sphere that touched but did not enter Federation space.

Meanwhile, our brave crew traveled to the "edge" of the Galaxy several times, prompting Isaac Asimov to note that this was like saying one had built a house on the "edge" of the Mississippi Valley.

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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 11:01am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Wasn't Voyager trying to come back from an 'other side of the galaxy' type of situation? I know they called everything quadrants but I do seem to remember those meaningless concepts 'halfway across' and 'other side' a little bit, and of course fourth-dimensional wormholes just happened to help them along the way faster than calculated (depended on ratings no doubt, when they were down the sped the voyage up), oh, and Kes giving them a big push once too.

Yes, all that space is moving constantly too. The oldest Trek seemed to have a static chart without factoring the distance in light would mean nothing was where it would appear to us as being. Ow, my brain hurts.

I hope nobody mentioned the four corners of the earth at any point.though, that might be the worst expression of all.

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 14 June 2018 at 11:04am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Slight sidebar: Continuing reading DAN DARE adventures from before I was introduced to the strip, I have reached "The Man from Nowhere". This story starts with an alien ship literally appearing "out of nowhere" deep inside Earth's defensive perimeter. To explain how this could have happened, Dan suggests an outrageous solution: the ship was traveling faster than light!
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 12:26pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 Ted Downum wrote:
"Pinning down" the geography saps the fun out of imagining it yourself (in contrast to, say, an invented high-fantasy world, where a map is PART of the fun of imagining it for yourself).

I think it depends on the motivation, my friend.

I always wanted a map of Eternia or Third Earth. Not to pick holes in it - I'm not saying anyone here is doing that - but to just have some fun. It's something tangible, not that dissimilar to a technical manual for KITT (can someone produce one, please?) or a technical manual for the Ghostbusters' equipment.

P.S. Will I ever be able to spell "dissimilar" correctly? 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Tying things down was one of the problems with OHOTMU.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

It was with OHOTMU. It should and could have been something enjoyable. In an age before Google, I enjoyed checking out a character's first appearance, noting it down and looking for it in back issue bins; I loved that it showed real names, height, etc.

But some had to misuse it or take the fun out of it. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 1:45pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Shooter ordered all the quantification in OHOTMU. He was no fan of the "Marvel Adrenaline Rush", with which characters accomplished things beyond their established power levels. He wanted OHOTMU to bolt everything down.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

I do recall the entry for the Hulk being the most pedantic. 
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Ted Downum
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Robbie: I think it depends on the motivation, my friend.

*****

That's very true.

I've been a fan of "Treknology" since I first saw the Franz Joseph technical manual. I try to enjoy blueprints and fleet charts and ship cutaways on their own merits, without parsing them for absolute accuracy. And yet: something about Star Trek--maybe that the franchise (at least for some of its history) has tried to maintain some internal consistency with its fictitious technology, or the fact that immersion in the details is part of the fun--gives a lot of fans an irritating tendency to do just that.

(An irritating tendency which afflicts me as much as anyone, as evidenced by my attempts to measure the distance on that map from Sol to Qo'noS using my pinkie finger as a thousand-light-year ruler.)
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Ted Downum
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

JB: He wanted OHOTMU to bolt everything down.

*****


JB, I can imagine how much that must've rankled--you personally, and any writer or artist working at Marvel in those days. 

Why take a science-fantasy universe and decide to set a bunch of arbitrary, highly specific limits on it? 

(Suddenly I wonder if Shooter was trying to do what he later claimed he wanted to do with the New Universe and Valiant, and make his comics world "realistic." Seems to me like an attempt to retrofit the Marvel Universe that way was a. the height of folly and b. a little grandiose.)




Edited by Ted Downum on 14 June 2018 at 3:00pm
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James Woodcock
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Robbie said someone needed to produce a Star wars map. It's been done several times:


You can even buy an Atlas (which of course I have)

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Remember, tech manuals and such are fun in terms of broading one's sense of immersion in a fictional universe, but they can signal the death of creativity in terms of storytelling.

All TOS needed to work so well was belivability. Pinning everything down should not take priority over storytelling.

Edited by Greg Kirkman on 14 June 2018 at 3:55pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 4:28pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Interesting. I always thought maybe the idea for the OHOTMU had come from those role-playing games like Champions where they had detailed character bio/stats sheets. I could see trading card series of baddies, goodies and joker/wild cards (Galactus and The watcher would make good wild cards), and maybe there could be a game that went with them, but thought at the time those comic book sized but yet not comic books issues looked pretty uninspiring to read through. Did they list past appearances and issue numbers? At least that would have had some use like those indexes to titles.

I never got into those Doctor Who reference books at all, I preferred things reflecting that it was a tv series and the info on the specifics and talent of that, not the fictional 'universe' being cataloged. Like that one Gene Roddenberry book on the making of the original Star Trek, it was fascinating and a bench mark for such a non-fiction work. Blueprints of the Enterprise could be fun I suppose, but having info never actually used in a show someplace is walking on thin ice, and for those reference tomes of fictional worlds someone would either have to just make up things or comb through loads of interviews, novels and archive stuff; otherwise it would have obvious big gaping holes that may or may not ever be filled in on the show.
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Trevor Krysak
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Posted: 14 June 2018 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Taking another look at this. The Romulans and Klingons have been at odds far longer than either race had issues with the Federation. How have they managed to leave a big patch of space empty next to each other?

The Klingons are this big conquest-happy warrior race and they just got bored one day and decided not to keep going? I know, I know. Space is very big but it seems strange one side or the other wouldn't have tried to box the other in. Some sort of mad land (space) grab.

The more I think about that map the worse it will be for me.
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Bill Guerra
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Posted: 29 June 2018 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

If I'm reading the map right, it has the Earth being in the Beta Quadrant. It was always said on screen that we were located in the Alpha Quadrant.
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Jack Bohn
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Posted: 30 June 2018 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

No, Sol itself is in the lower left corner of the Terran sector, as the TNG books put it as the dividing line between Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 03 July 2018 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

So, if the El Aureans are waaay in the boonies of the upper right how did they encounter the Delta Quadrant native Borg before the Federation?

Yeah, I know.   Space is big.

You can pretty much buff out any of the logistical issues with that blanket statement.

Also, the galaxy isn't a flat disk the thickness of a single solar system.   There's room for the territories of all of the biggies (Fed, Rom, Kgn) to overlap in the 'Z plane'.   Someone please make me a 3D holographic map. :-)
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John Byrne
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Posted: 03 July 2018 at 7:53am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

STAR TREK has always had problems with the term "quadrant". Somewhere along the way, it seems like somebody forgot that a "quadrant" is one quarter of something, and that if a lens shaped object, like the Galaxy, is divided into "quadrants" (presumably radiating from the center), then the "Alpha" quadrant will be bordered by the Beta and Delta quadrants, one on each side.

But, hey, they never could really figure out where, or what shape, the Romulan empire was. The North/South Vietnam metaphor got lost very quickly.

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