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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 06 April 2019 at 8:50am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Rodrigo C.: "It's impossible this film is worse than Batman v. Superman."

DC Cinematics: "Hold my beer."
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 06 April 2019 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I don't care about this movie but it doesn't see to have any connection to the DC Extended Universe (are they still calling it that?) so it won't have any impact on any future Batman films that Warner Bros. decides to make. 
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Eric Smearman
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Posted: 06 April 2019 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

"I feel like this whole movie is a swerve..."

I noticed that the film's title is JOKER, not THE JOKER.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 07 April 2019 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

IMDb says “Holy Martin Scorsese Batman!”

sigh

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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 07 April 2019 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply


Which is ironic, since the IMDb credits for JOKER, at least so far, do not show Scorsese listed anywhere in any producer role (when supposedly he was to have had a hand in the production).






Edited by Shaun Barry on 07 April 2019 at 4:04pm
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DW Zomberg
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Posted: 08 April 2019 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Probably not the point John was making, Shaun.

Don Z
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 08 April 2019 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply


Yeah, I got that.  And I was obviously making a different (though not-entirely-unrelated) observation.

But thanks for condescendingly pointing that out, and speaking on JB's behalf.

:P
 
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 08 April 2019 at 4:48pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I'm not getting the sense it will be awful in the way that CATWOMAN and BATMAN VS SUPERMAN were.

I can't speak to CATWOMAN, as I never saw it, but with BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN, weren't off-the-mark characterizations a big part of the problem? Also, just an overall drabness and no sense of fun in a movie that should be colorful and and fun in at least in some way? That Wonder Woman was the figurative and literal (tho all too brief) bright spot in a movie named after the other two was very telling. 

My impression is this film will have similar issues. A movie about the Joker should not be colorless and un-fun and not really about the Joker!!!

Hard. Pass.




Edited by Brian Rhodes on 08 April 2019 at 4:50pm
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 08 April 2019 at 7:09pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Re: Brian

For me, off-the-mark characterizations in BvS was just "a" problem in probably one of the worst films I've seen in my life. It wasn't just that it wasn't fun and colorful either. The big problem was the sheer incompetence and wrong-headedness of all involved. A terrible script, terrible performances, non-sensical plot, clumsily shot, you name it. If you changed the tone or characterizations it wouldn't have been better, just a different kind of awful.

THE DARK KNIGHT (the film this JOKER movie is most probably trying to emulate) wasn't fun and colorful either (though I do find it hilarious in parts) but was made by intelligent, competent people who knew what they were doing. Millions of viewers and the industry people who give out awards agreed.

It may not be your preferred version of The Joker (it maybe isn't mine either) but it worked, colorless and un-fun as it is, because it was a good film. Totally different neighborhood than BvS.

 
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Andy Mokler
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 1:14am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The one preview I've(accidentally) seen makes it seem like they are trying to make the Joker a sympathetic character.  Two or three different times he's getting beaten up by thugs.  He's just a sensitive clown who wants to make people laugh but he's driven to...?, because of mean souls picking on him.

Granted, that's just the one preview so who knows, but if true, they seem to not get the Joker at all.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 2:19am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I can't speak to CATWOMAN, as I never saw it, but with BATMAN VS. SUPERMAN, weren't off-the-mark characterizations a big part of the problem?

-----

The problem was that they were shitty movies.

JOKER has the cast and crew to be a good movie. It just doesn't look like a good Joker movie.
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Greg McPhee
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 5:58am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Batman's villains should not be sympathetic. If anything the only villains that I feel should evoke some sympathy from the reader are Two-Face (and after his B:TAS origin) was incorporated, Mr. Freeze.

These were characters driven to villainy by events out of their control.

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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 10:28am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

It wasn't just that it wasn't fun and colorful either. The big problem was the sheer incompetence and wrong-headedness of all involved. A terrible script, terrible performances, non-sensical plot, clumsily shot, you name it. If you changed the tone or characterizations it wouldn't have been better, just a different kind of awful.

At this point, all I have to go by is what I consider "wrong-headedness" of what I've seen in the trailer. The script, plot, cinematography, and performances may all suck in this, too. I won't know, as what I've seen, so far, is enough to keep me away. I realize there are talented people involved. Talent does not automatically render greatness.


THE DARK KNIGHT is over-rated. A nice looking film? Sure. Cool action moments? Heck, yeah. Heath Ledger's performance? Phenomenal. Now, if only he'd played the Joker. The plot? A guy who's pledged to become the nemesis of the underworld wants to quit after 6 months and is largely ineffectual in his own film. His biggest obstacle? A guy that wears "war paint", a self-purported "agent of chaos" without a plan, whose plans are fantastically elaborate.  Not only is the Joker not really the Joker in this movie, Batman is barely Batman.

And is a "good movie" that fails its main character really a good movie?

The one aspect of the Joker that TDK absolutely nailed is that he was a cypher. We knew nothing about his background (by design) or his motivations (perhaps by accident). We didn't know him, we couldn't know him, we didn't want to know him.

So much for that.

 


Edited by Brian Rhodes on 09 April 2019 at 4:43pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Batman's villains should not be sympathetic.

-----

The entirety of BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES, which I consider the exemplar of Batman, disagrees with you. Almost every villain had some element of tragedy or something sympathetic about them in that series.

Joker should not be sympathetic though, not because Batman's villains can't be sympathetic, but because the audience shouldn't know who Joker is beyond being the Joker to sympathize with him. He's just a pure villain.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

But even in B:TAS, just because a villain has elements that could engender sympathy, it doesn't NOT make them villains. That's kinda the point of Arkham Asylum, I think; there are elements that need treatment that could make them non-villains; not non-sympathetic.

The best case of a sympathetic villain is Ace in Justice League, in two episodes - especially in "Epilogue."

Of course, the Joker comes nowhere near this level, and it's one of the things I don't like in his "origin" in The Killing Joke. An origin misses the point of the Joker; he's a mysterious madman.

Damn, I miss Cesar Romero.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 1:47pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply


 QUOTE:
But even in B:TAS, just because a villain has elements that could engender sympathy, it doesn't NOT make them villains.

I don't think anyone suggested otherwise.


 QUOTE:
The best case of a sympathetic villain is Ace in Justice League, in two episodes - especially in "Epilogue."

Ace was a young girl who was used by the Joker and then used by Cadmus. I don't think she was a villain at all.
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 2:23pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

His biggest obstacle? A guy that wears "war paint", a self-purported "agent of chaos" without a plan, whose plans are fantastically elaborate.  Not only is the Joker not really the Joker in this movie, Batman is barely Batman.

------------------------------

Hrrm... sounds pretty similar to the Batman and Joker I know but whatever.

I like comic book traditions a lot and I respect them. But at some point you have to offer SOMETHING new. If not, what's the point of even making these things?

If you only want to see a wholesome Batman with no self-doubt or conflicts that always wins chasing a funny colorful Joker that always loses with a bag that says "$" on a giant typewriter and then sharing a good laugh with his ol' chum Robin, you can. It's been done. Thousands of times.

But like it or not, the Batman and Joker mythos has moved way beyond that for most of the public and I refuse to believe that's inherently bad. Maybe this movie turns out to be bad, who knows... but I'm not going to make that judgement based on Joaquin Phoenix not looking like Cesar Romero.


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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

The one preview I've(accidentally) seen makes it seem like they are trying to make the Joker a sympathetic character.  Two or three different times he's getting beaten up by thugs.  He's just a sensitive clown who wants to make people laugh but he's driven to...?, because of mean souls picking on him.

Granted, that's just the one preview so who knows, but if true, they seem to not get the Joker at all.

--------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, that didn't work for me neither. 

Also, if that's the direction the film is taking I think they're going to have the "Jack Nicholson in THE SHINING" problem. Phoenix is full on "psycho-face" even when he's being bullied or dancing with his mother (?) and so on. I don't see the "transformation" having much impact.

But hey, THE SHINING is one of my favorite films anyways, so not a deal breaker.
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 3:05pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Hrrm... sounds pretty similar to the Batman and Joker I know but whatever.

So, the Joker you know is just a gangster in shitty make-up and Batman is a quitter?

Awesome. 

Thanks, asinine movies.

At least BvS had a Batman that was still at it after 20 years. 

What's the point of even making these things?

Indeed.


Edited by Brian Rhodes on 09 April 2019 at 3:12pm
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

At least BvS had a Batman that was still at it after 20 years. 

------------------------------------------------------------ -------

Yeah, it must be a better movie then.

But as I said, you have your Dick Sprang comics, nobody'll touch them (I love them too!). You have your Batman '66... well, in there The Joker IS pretty much a gangster with VERY shitty makeup (the guy wouldn't even shave his moustache!) so maybe it's a bit extreme a mischaracterization, forget about it.

I wonder which possible Joker version could possibly satisfy you, since he can't be a gangster, can't wear makeup, can't be an agent of chaos and if he does have elaborate plans that seems to bother you too. 

Maybe this "Batman" thing is not for you? Stop worrying about those pesky youngblood psychobabbling whippersnappers and their Heath Ledgers and Joaquin Phoenixes, you'll be much happier.


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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Look like we got ourselves the World Worstest Detective, here.

Edited by Brian Rhodes on 09 April 2019 at 4:44pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 09 April 2019 at 7:07pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

We live in an age in which no one can be held entirely responsible for his/her actions. There must be scars in their psyches that off excuses for what they do. Not explanations, mind you. Excuses.
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 10 April 2019 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Batman's villains should not be sympathetic. If anything the only villains that I feel should evoke some sympathy from the reader are Two-Face (and after his B:TAS origin) was incorporated, Mr. Freeze.

***

Agreed. What makes Two-Face my favorite Batman villain is that Batman clearly hates that he has to fight him. Punch out the Joker or the Penguin? No problem. Punch out Two-Face? Batman's punching out a friend who went nuts, and it hurts to do it. 
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Matt Reed
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Posted: 11 April 2019 at 12:47am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

 Rodrigo Castellanos wrote:
I wonder which possible Joker version could possibly satisfy you, since he can't be a gangster, can't wear makeup, can't be an agent of chaos and if he does have elaborate plans that seems to bother you too.

How 'bout the common two-bit thug that fell into a vat of chemicals that was neither a gangster, someone who previously wore makeup, an agent of chaos or had elaborate plans to overthrow the criminal underworld? How 'bout THAT guy? He also wasn't the EXTREMELY COINCIDENTAL guy that murdered Bruce's parents. How about a common thug who found himself immersed (literally) in an unusual situation that enabled him to become the Joker with no literal ties to Bruce Wayne's origin as Batman?  Forget the psychobabble about his youth and get on with the fact that he's bad because he is.  

I know.  WEIRD!
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 11 April 2019 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

How 'bout the common two-bit thug that fell into a vat of chemicals that was neither a gangster, someone who previously wore makeup, an agent of chaos or had elaborate plans to overthrow the criminal underworld? How 'bout THAT guy? He also wasn't the EXTREMELY COINCIDENTAL guy that murdered Bruce's parents. How about a common thug who found himself immersed (literally) in an unusual situation that enabled him to become the Joker with no literal ties to Bruce Wayne's origin as Batman?  Forget the psychobabble about his youth and get on with the fact that he's bad because he is.  

I know.  WEIRD!

------------------------------------------------------------ -----

Ok. So not a gangster, no plans (elaborate or not) to overthrow the criminal underworld, no connection to Batman (especially not in a Tim Burton movie way that nobody had mentioned in the thread). Just a guy, vat of chemicals.

So, like... a common burn victim? Yeah, it IS kinda weird now that you mention it but whatever works for you.

On an unrelated note, check out this Joker drawn by his original creator Jerry Robinson... pretty gangsta, huh?

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