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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 1:11am | IP Logged | 1
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From what I've discovered here, elsewhere, and thru that link on this one particular project especially, it seems safe to say that Jim Shooter was always a bit too hands on, while Dick Giordano (this time at least) was too hands off. Sure, let the professionals do their jobs, but this was a pretty important event--a little too important to think "we'll fix it as we go."
Shooter's listed objections seem a bit ridiculous--of COURSE you'll want Ant-Man to meet the Atom! And OF COURSE you've got to have Quicksilver and the Flash race!
But, really? There's time to have George Perez draw TWENTY pages, but not enough time to do a little typing?
I always find it funny when somebody says DC and Marvel are alike. They have ALWAYS seemed to be totally different to me, different "spirits" if you will. Even when DC tried to "Marvelize" in the 90's, Marvel was trying to "Image-ize" at the same time! And now DC is trying to be Wildstorm, while Marvel goes DC with its own universe-merging "Crisis" and its ever-growing "Spider-Man Family"! (Of course, it's also trying to be Indy comics with a lot of its line and art styles.)
I think the first Marvel/DC Superman/Spider-Man crossover happened when the "spirits" aligned pretty well, but usually they don't.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 3:08am | IP Logged | 2
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Thanks for the link, Vinny!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 4:42am | IP Logged | 3
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Shooter's listed objections seem a bit ridiculous--of COURSE you'll want Ant-Man to meet the Atom! And OF COURSE you've got to have Quicksilver and the Flash race!••• Unless you wanted to do something, o I don't know, original!
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 5:41am | IP Logged | 4
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George Perez: one of those few artists who could remarkably draw any and every character remarkably well.
Jim Shooter: his tenure as EIC reminds me of a president during whose time in office great things take place and yet still do not redeem the day-in-and-out running of his administration or the overall directions and fundamental decisions he can take direct responsibility for.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 6:17am | IP Logged | 5
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One reason I found the book credible was how it linked to footnotes which, via the Kindle, led me to interviews with various creators. So it's not a case of "He said..." or "She said..."
I may as well say this: some of Joe Quesada's comments about the competition are mean-spirited.
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Steven Myers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 June 2004
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 6:24am | IP Logged | 6
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the whole things just doesn’t make sense. Why is any of this stuff happening (other than because the writer says it is) and why are all these people doing strange things? I find very few solid reasons or motives for the actions of the characters.”
Read more: http://marvel1980s.blogspot.com/2011/06/1983-jlaavengers-cro ssover-also-known.html#ixzz5HSVANCJw
The quote above describes Secret Wars perfectly!
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 7
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One disappointing aspect of what I have learnt is the realisation that, unless Marvel or DC have the sense to make me their editor-in-chief, they won't collaborate.
In 2016, which was the 40th anniversary of SUPERMAN VS THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, I thought it would have been ideal to have ONE MORE Superman/Spider-Man team-up. We'd had two. A third might have been nice.
I love the number 3 (egg, yolk, white; Holy Trinity; film trilogies; water existing as steam, ice and liquid, etc). I don't know, 3 is a great number. If I was making a film series, it'd be 3 films. So a third Superman/Spider-Man team-up, to commemorate the 40th anniversary of the first, might have been nice, especially if they'd gone with non-predictable villains (so no Man of Steel and the web-slinger VS Green Goblin and Lex Luthor, but something else, e.g. Atomic Skull and Lizard).
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 8
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Technically, Robbie, All-Access Comics #1 was the third Spider-Man/Superman crossover. It wasn't half-bad, but I was a sucker for the DC/Marvel crossovers (initially) and the Amalgam books.
I feel that a book such as this would have a very limited audience. Comics are probably as popular now as they've ever been, between TV shows, movies, and other media presentations - as well as the books themselves, of course.
But most of the public doesn't know there's any difference between DC and Marvel. Of those who do, quite a few are uncertain of which character is with which company. The remainder - including most of us - do know the differences and some of the inter-company conflicts and differences.
Even so... I trust you, Robbie, but I'm still a little suspicious of the contents of this book with regards to the authenticity of all the content. Even quotes and anecdotes are subject to memory lapses, exaggerations, or outright lies - to salvage reputations, due to legal prohibitions, or whatever other reasons apply.
One example below relates to the first Avengers/JLA crossover and the details. I remember this well, and was quite saddened that A) it didn't happen, B) it signified the end of any more DC/Marvel crossovers, and C) it meant that detente between the two companies had ended.
But I read one account of the story by Dick Giordano, and one account by Jim Shooter (I think... I don't recall for sure who wrote the Marvel side of that story.) I cannot believe that both sides were true, and so I'm not sure how much of it at all was factual. But I know that any conflict has two sides to it, and as there was no victor, no one knows how much of which side was exactly right.
Further... if this does go back to the 60s, who's left that reliably recalls what happened at both companies? Possibly Roy Thomas? I am pressing myself to recall who remains around that worked for either company from back then, and I'm coming up REALLY short. Ramona Fradon. Sal Buscema. Jim Shooter. Paul Levitz. Larry Leiber. Steve Ditko. And yes, Stan is still around, but his memory is notoriously unreliable.
Some of those stories, then, are at least second generation. And with no references to any prior for this author... I dunno. Call me skeptical.
We can probably think of several company vs company "rivalries" which were outright nasty. Avis vs Hertz. Burger King vs McDonalds. Gimballs vs Macys. ABC vs CBS vs NBC. Great drama, probably exciting conflict... but are they more drama than fact?
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 10:35am | IP Logged | 9
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Eric, the majority of quotes/anecdotes (I read the Kindle version) link to the footnotes. Some footnotes will state the issue number/year of a magazine like COMIC SCENE. Other footnotes link to internet sites. Via the Kindle, I was able to click on the relevant links and see it from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
That did happen a lot.
As I stated in my original post, some things may be apocryphal - that golf game - but the modern quotes/anecdotes link, via the footnotes, to various website links whilst some of the historical links will link to trade journals, magazines, etc. Obviously, I don't have those journals to hand, but there's no reason to believe they aren't true if they've been named. Anyone who had those back issues could check, I suppose.
What adds to the credibility for me is that the writer does appear to distinguish between what may be apocryphal - the golf game - and what is incontestable. Without all those footnote/web links, I'd have been extremely skeptical, but they do validate a lot of points made in the book.
EDIT: Of course, the fact that someone said something doesn't make it true - did you know I once met Thor and Hercules in Wales? - but some things are backed up by evidence.
Edited by Robbie Parry on 04 June 2018 at 10:40am
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 10
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I've only read about them, but wouldn't those 'amalgam' comics be the ultimate Marvel-DC mash-up? Spider-boy being part Spiderman and part Superboy. I'm sure I could get hooked into buying these like I did all these mid-90s Flashback one-shots and those 1963 Image things.
Someone, maybe it was Jim Shooter, was quoted to have said the difference between Marvel and DC was that where Marvel would have Galactus, DC would come up with Matter-Eater Lad! I don't necessarily agree but it's a great line. I would say generally Marvels did aim a little older, except in terms of war comics where it was definitely vice-versa.
You would find it a lot easier to count the number of people who haven't worked for both than to name everyone who has. I bet when Roy Thomas moved to DC that was considered massive at the time. So if they are so fundamentally different you'd think there'd be a lot more people who could only fit at one or the other.
It' seems obvious they have always watched each other too when they've had so many Swamp Thing - Man Thing type mirror image creations.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 11
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Shooter's listed objections seem a bit ridiculous--of COURSE you'll want Ant-Man to meet the Atom! And OF COURSE you've got to have Quicksilver and the Flash race!••• Unless you wanted to do something, o I don't know, original! _____ Really? You'd avoid these moments? In the CAPTAIN AMERICA/BATMAN special, you had Bucky and Robin finally meet and you gave us that great moment where the Joker and the Red Skull tried to gas each other but were immune! If this was going to be the ONLY time these two teams could meet, then yeah, I'd have Ant-Man visiting that day. I might even find a way for Doll Man to be involved. And have the Flash and Quicksilver race--if only for the Flash to leave Quicksilver in the dust! (Nice humbling moment for Pietro! Is that maybe why he has such a superior attitude--because everybody around him is so slow? I'd get frustrated too if all the people around me were moving in slow motion.) These are the moments readers WANT for team-ups like this. Monica Rambeau racing the Flash would be original, but, honestly, who would care? The first SUPERMAN/SPIDER-MAN meeting was timeless and can still be enjoyed to this day. Shooter's objections (and I even like Shooter, for the most part) were all then-present continuity minutia, most of which is not even retained to this day. He was being way too picky (and most of his listed objections could have been fixed in the dialogue--they did not require George Perez starting over), while Giordano admittedly was being too cavalier.
Edited by Eric Jansen on 04 June 2018 at 11:41am
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
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| Posted: 04 June 2018 at 11:38am | IP Logged | 12
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For those who didn't click on the Vinny's link, here are Shooter's "deal-breakers" for the JLA/AVENGERS team-up--
“These are the problems with the latest version of the Avengers/JLA plot: - Ant Man should not be included. He isn’t an Avenger and would not be involved. - Quicksilver must come from Attilan, where he lives, which is on the moon. - Thor’s hammer cannot follow a trail through time. He lost all such abilities a while back. - Hawkeye is married now, a fact which should be mentioned in the scene with Black Canary. - vision has demonstrated emotions - he should not be affected by the Shiva Egg because he is non-biological, not non-emotional - A Quicksilver/Flash race is ludicrous since Flash run at light speed and Quicksilver can’t even manage the speed of sound. Perhaps Flash should race Captain Marvel who can attain the speed of light in her energy form. - Quicksilver would also be unable to help Flash energize the makeshift cosmic treadmill in any physical way. - Firestorm and Captain Marvel are probably not evenly matched as mentioned since Firestorm controls nuclear energy and CM can become any energy, including nuclear. |
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