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Robert Shepherd
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Posted: 28 May 2018 at 8:57pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

What did you think of Obi Wan's last battle?

***

Well to be totally honest I thought that was a cop out too. It just felt like Ben just quit on the fight. 

I fully understand though that the context was he was "sacrificing" himself to allow Luke and the others to escape. From a story telling perspective it was a cop out that allowed a significant death without actually dying.

When Yoda had is big show down with Count Dooku and Darth Sidious, at least you could sit back and say, yeah, Yoda is all that.

I just think they should have had at least one scene with Luke doing the same.

That just my opinion.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 28 May 2018 at 10:35pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Greg Kirkman, again, some of here have to ask:  What the f___ are you talking about?

Did you miss the part where J.J. Abrams, Rian Johnson, James Mangold and Jon Favreau (all white men, what a relief!!) have all been tapped to write/direct the next films and TV series?

Did you miss the part where *gasp* there are still white male actors to be seen in all of the new STAR WARS films, both sequels and spin-offs?

These new films aren't being geared "exclusively" to women and minorities.  That's just angry bullshit.
++++++++

Okay, “exclusively” is too strong a word. Bad call on my part.

Abrams and others involved with the productions have made comments about how there need to be more minorities starring in and directing these films. Which comes across as a wee bit hypocritical, since, y’know, they’re White dudes, themselves. Perhaps they should put their money where their mouths are, step down, and make room for others. The hiring of a Black woman as a Second Unit Director on EPISODE IX made the news rounds, some weeks back. As if that’s some kind of Big Deal. There’s was also a story in which it was stated that the percentage of White men working at ILM was “too high”.

Call me crazy, but I think that the best people for a job should get the job, regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation. 

I didn’t subscribe to the idea of STAR WARS pushing more and more for a female audience until I really started paying attention to the new films and the interviews/news stories surrounding them. Kathy Kennedy and her “The Force Is Female” t-shirt is a big clue as to what she’s driving at. There’s also the FORCES OF DESTINY cartoon series and it’s doll line (which is basically STAR WARS-themed Barbie dolls). The continual PR push from Lucasfilm has been toward female lead characters and a progressive, female audience. The insipid comments of people like Abrams and Rian Johnson, in which they’ve repeatedly claimed that those who hate THE LAST JEDI are just “sexist” and “racist” White male nerds is...disturbing. And also reminiscent of the GHOSTBUSTERS (2016) debacle, in which Sony deflected fan complaints about the reboot by labeling them as basement-dwelling, sexist, White male nerds.


If you actually stop and look at what’s been produced for STAR WARS over the past few years, there’s been a increasing skew toward hyper-competent female lead characters, and male co-stars who are either evil, incompetent, or comedy relief. Rey is a Mary Sue who somehow becomes a Jedi with absolutely no training, has a ridiculous amount of skills that she shouldn’t have, and beats Luke Skywalker in a stick fight. Maz Kanata is presented as a wise female mentor, a Yoda for the Sequel Trilogy, and Luke Skywalker is a bitter old man. Meanwhile, Poe Dameron Is treated as a loose cannon and an example of toxic masculinity by Leia and Admiral Holdo. Finn is bumbling, incompetent comic relief, whose heroic sacrifice is stopped at the last moment by Rose Tico, who blathers on about how they’re gonna win by “saving what we love”. Even as the laser-battering-ram smashes into the Resistance base, which Finn was about to prevent.

There are no strong male characters or inspiring male role models in the Disney STAR WARS films. They are all failures, incompetent, evil, or need to be taught lessons by the women. I find that disconcerting. I have no problem with strong female characters. I DO have a problem with badly-written, Mary Sue-type characters, and with making the men look bad so as to make the women look good. That is not equality. If you start digging into interviews and comments, Kathy Kennedy seems pretty determined to push her Feminism angle into any and all STAR WARS productions under her control. Instead of telling good stories with strong characters of both genders. But that’s just my take. YMMV.


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 28 May 2018 at 10:39pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 28 May 2018 at 10:46pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

I agree with some of what you said Greg minus the Mary Sue/SJW stuff. You're 
better than that Greg.
+++++++

No, I guess I’m not.

I didn’t even know what an SJW was until I started researching both positive and negative reviews for the Disney films. The more interviews and news stories I’ve seen, the more I’ve subscribed to the notion. I can’t unsee it. It’s not brainwashing. I don’t have a horse in the race. I just want good stories about interesting characters. But, I can not deny, based on the many statements made by people involved with the films, that something is rotten in Denmark. 

There’s a lot of virtue signaling and labeling of dissenting opinions going on, here, and it fits the definition of SJWism as I’ve come to understand it. They pat themselves on the backs for being “progressive” (terrible writing and storytelling aside), and insult people who don’t think like them and agree with their politics. Everything is offensive, and if you’re not with them, you’re against them.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 28 May 2018 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

ANYWAY, in relation to general franchise fatigue, as noted, the Marvel movies are doing phenomenal business. While I can gripe and grumble about the changes to the source material, Marvel, unlike Lucasfilm, is paying attention to what it’s audience wants: well-made, fun, escapist entertainment without annoying political preaching. The Marvel films feature fun and interesting characters of numerous races and genders working together as equals, and serving as role models and inspiration for kids. 

The only “franchise fatigue” going on with STAR WARS is that the new movies suck, the old characters have been disrespected, and people ain’t going for it. The $2 billion box office for THE FORCE AWAKENS proved that the appetite was still there. Or, at least, the pent-up desire for a nostalgic catharsis. 

I’d still argue that STAR WARS had its day, and that day is done. The Marvel movies are this generation’s STAR WARS. Of course, if STAR WARS was still good, things might be different. I can’t see this generation of kids embracing the new films in the same way that the originals (and even the prequels) were embraced by kids of their day. Give it another 10-ish years, and people probably won’t care anymore. Especially after increasingly-desperate spin-off films designed to exploit every last nook and cranny. Like, say, LOBOT: A STAR WARS STORY, or BIGGS DARKLIGHTER: A STAR WARS STORY. On the flipside, Iron Man and Captain America will surely continue to be beloved by the current generation of kids.

I’m telling ya, THE LAST JEDI broke the franchise and the fandom. Mark my words. There won’t be a hunger for EPISODE IX, as there was for VIII. The film leaves the characters with nowhere to go. Friggin’ Rey already beat Kylo Ren at the end of the first film, and she’s already the most awesomest Jedi ever. She has no arc. And there is no “I am your father” moment in TLJ to keep people hungry and speculating about the next installment. Rather than an exciting, cliffhanger-ish Act Two of a trilogy, TLJ feels instead like a lackluster Act Three. An anti-climax to a less-than-compelling story. Because Rian Johnson threw out all of those Mystery Box plot thread Abrams set up, so as to satisfy his idiotic desire to “subvert expectations” at every turn.

(Cue sad trombone.)
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 28 May 2018 at 11:09pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Greg, it's like you were all pent up with those feelings and finally burst open, letting them flood out. :-)
++++++


You have no idea. 

The bottom line for me is that the people in charge either don’t understand STAR WARS, it’s characters, and it’s lore, or they just don’t care. The political correctness and forced diversity is more or a symptom than anything else. It’s the bad writing and disrespect for what’s come before that I can’t stand. I don’t care what anyone says: Nothing Lucas did in the prequels was worse that what we have now. The original characters and their legacy are forever tainted. There’s no coming back from this, and Disney has underestimated how pissed off the fanbase really is.

So, yes, recasting Han Solo (...perhaps in preparation for the eventual Disney remake of the original film, with younger actors?) is part of the problem, more so than “franchise fatigue”. Rewriting the original characters is part of the problem. The center does not hold, and things fall apart. Fandom’s BS meter is going off, now, and it ain’t gonna stop.
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 28 May 2018 at 11:49pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

By the way, apologies if I’ve derailed this thread by steering it into STAR WARS-land. But...I hadda let it all out.

As a postscript, Michael French of Retroblasting just released a fantastic video which sums up my own thoughts on the state of the franchise and the discussion surrounding it:



This isn’t about franchise fatigue. It’s about bad creative choices and politics infecting the entertainment industry. STAR WARS in particular has become a microcosm of the political/cultural war which has consumed this country in terrifying ways.
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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 28 May 2018 at 11:58pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Agree with Greg.

When it was first announced that Disney was taking over
Star Wars, I was happy to see it leave George Lucas'
hands, I felt he lost touch with his universe. Now I
regret that idea. Disney destroyed the universe more
than Lucas ever could.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 12:01am | IP Logged | 8 post reply


 QUOTE:
it fits the definition of SJWism as I’ve come to understand it.

And I'll once again point out, that "Social Justice Warrior", at least on the internet, used to refer to the sort of armchair social activists who would claim a cause without really understanding it or doing anything about it. The GamerGate crowd, who'd later on graduate to the alt-Right and, for some, full-on Nazism co-opted that term as a pejorative for /anyone/ with any sort of progressive platform. Anyone regurgitating that term is literally adopting the agitprop of Nazis.

It's really getting fucking ridiculous how hard the alt-Right struggles to claim some agenda to prop up women and reduce the role of men, when we have SOLO, OBI-WAN, and BOBA FETT as the current set of spin-offs, and after SOLO, where out of the three starring female characters we see
 INVISO TEXT (Click or highlight to reveal):
one gets killed off right away, one is a robot activist played for laughs AND killed off, and the last one is Han's femme fatale who betrays him for the Big Bad
. How did they slip that by Kathleen Kennedy?!?



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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 12:27am | IP Logged | 9 post reply


 QUOTE:
While I can gripe and grumble about the changes to the source material, Marvel, unlike Lucasfilm, is paying attention to what it’s audience wants: well-made, fun, escapist entertainment without annoying political preaching.

I'll also need to point out that BLACK PANTHER, which is currently the second biggest movie of the year (and currently first domestically and third all-time domestically), is very much grounded in contemporary politics and made a serious effort with regard to black representation in both casting and production.


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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 12:56am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The new Star Wars creators are making it out like the
problem isn't their bad writing, it's that men
couldn't take strong women in movies.

J.J. Abrams "Star Wars fans who didn't like Last Jedi
are threatened by women characters."

Which is complete crap, because awesome female
characters have been around long before these new Star
Wars films and the same fans love those movies.

- Ripply in Aliens
- Sara Conner in Terminator
- Trinity in the Matrix
- Leia in the original trilogy
- All the women in Kill Bill

I think some of the best fight scenes I have ever seen
in a movie was Hit Girl in Kick Ass.

And so on..

They just can't admit that their movies are trash.

Edited by Thomas Woods on 29 May 2018 at 1:00am
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Doug Jones
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 2:23am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

The hiring of a Black woman as a Second Unit Director on EPISODE IX made the news rounds, some weeks back. As if that’s some kind of Big Deal. There’s was also a story in which it was stated that the percentage of White men working at ILM was “too high”.

Call me crazy, but I think that the best people for a job should get the job, regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation. 


This statement isn't crazy; it just reads like disingenuous nonsense-- a talk-radio platitude that doesn't actually reflect the way the industry works. 

I've worked in the business for nearly 20 years. People get hired for all kinds of reasons, and very often the "best person for the job" isn't even a category on the list. It could be who you know, how cheap you are, what you look like or who you've may have slept with. And it's not just entertainment. Has every person you've ever worked with been the best person for the job? If so, you haven't worked many places.

So, yes, it is absolutely a Big Fucking Deal that a Black woman made second unit on a film in this gargantuan franchise. In an segment of the industry that has consistently and routinely shut out a) people of color and b) women, black women in particular have come in near the very bottom of the food chain when it comes to hiring opportunities. People of color in America do not get the luxury of ignoring (or diminishing, as you attempted to do above) industry breakthroughs--especially behind the camera-- no matter how insignificant they may seem to others. 

This is not new to STAR WARS; Billy Dee Williams' casting was a big deal at the time. We'd all love for these things to not be a big deal, but historically speaking: every time we are on the road to making that happen, we get a huge reality check. It may not be a big deal to you, and that's fine--but it's not about you.


This isn’t about franchise fatigue. It’s about bad creative choices and politics infecting the entertainment industry. STAR WARS in particular has become a microcosm of the political/cultural war which has consumed this country in terrifying ways.

I agree re: franchise fatigue and bad creative. But the entertainment industry has not been "infected" by politics. Politics and the industry have always been deeply intertwined--both onscreen and off--and without the former, the latter would be far less compelling. 

I didn't care for TLJ, but it is astonishing how a few more prominent female roles plus ten minutes on a planet run by rich weapons-traffickers have some people in rapturous fits declaring the End of The Franchise. And even though it didn't meet studio expectations, SOLO still outperformed Disney's previous offerings in the Memorial Day slot and helped secure two of the top three films on one of the biggest weekends of the year. Disney's biggest problem--the one that actually makes shareholders sweat-- is that the STAR WARS franchise doesn't play in China, which is on pace to become the largest film market in the world. That's an issue for them which goes beyond whether the scary admiral lady hurt the delicate dashing fighter pilot's feelings, or whether a female droid has the audacity to actually have a personality which fits outside the category of "subservient."

In light of that, perhaps everyone should get a grip.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 2:51am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

The new Star Wars creators are making it out like the 
problem isn't their bad writing, it's that men 
couldn't take strong women in movies.

J.J. Abrams "Star Wars fans who didn't like Last Jedi 
are threatened by women characters."

-----

That's not a direct quote from J.J. Abrams. That's an article headline. Here's the direct quote:


 QUOTE:
Asked by IndieWire about pushback from “Star Wars” fans who decried Rian Johnson’s film for its focus on more female-centric stories (bolstered by the edition of franchise newbies like Laura Dern and Kelly Marie Tran), Abrams was clear: “Their problem isn’t ‘Star Wars,’ their problem is being threatened.”


He is not painting everyone who didn't like TLJ with the same brush. He's specifically addressing those critics who were complaining about the female characters.

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Conrad Teves
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 6:18am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Thomas>>
- Ripply in Aliens
- Sara Conner in Terminator
- Trinity in the Matrix
- Leia in the original trilogy
- All the women in Kill Bill<<

Four of those five movies are R-rated (five if you include your mention of Hit Girl in Kick-Ass).  As a rule this automatically reduces box office potential.  The explanation I'd seen is that it's not that adults don't go see movies, it's that they are less likely to see a movie multiple times. Hence, the drive for a PG-13 rating when swinging for the fences, and the wisdom of budgeting accordingly.

On the other hand, you can easily name five male lead action hero movies every year, if not vastly more--I stopped counting at 33 for 2017 alone.

And Greg, I love ya man, but I think you are largely wrong on this one.
As for Star Wars current course being financial suicide, I'd point at not only the Box Office, but dvd and blu-ray sales, where the audience gets to reconsider their decision and pay more to own the movie. Behold:
https://www.the-numbers.com/alltime-bluray-sales-chart.  They don't have the numbers for TLJ, but:
http://variety.com/2018/digital/news/star-wars-the-last-jedi -easily-tops-dvd-blu-ray-disc-sales-charts-1202748275/
If I were a Disney shareholder, I'd think they were having all the success the market would reasonably bear, and more.

As for franchise fatigue?  Yeah. I think this was inevitable no matter what they did.  
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 7:03am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

The Last Jedi's problem was not its lead being a woman -- I think Rey (along with Kylo Ren) is one of the more compelling characters in the new series. One of its problems was not really having anything particularly interesting to offer Poe and Finn. Really, the film could have done with losing one of those two.
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Paul Greer
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 7:49am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

I usually like your take on things Greg but I
think you are completely off base with this
hyper focus on women and minorities being
something to complain about. It really makes
me turn a deaf ear to your legitimate
complaints about the franchise.
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Jozef Brandt
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 8:24am | IP Logged | 16 post reply


I'm more with Greg on this one.  In some cases the actual content that is the result of this political push is very subtle, but it's the constant braggadocio in the press about what they are doing that makes me not want to support their movies just to spite them.  If they had released the films/cartoons/etc without saying a word the backlash would have been a lot less.  They either seem afraid to let the work speak for itself, or they are trying to use the political garbage as a way to drum up controversy or artificial praise from like-minded critics. 

Lucas in recent years claims that the finale of ROTJ was a metaphor for Vietnam, with a primitive group assisting the rebels in defeating a technologically superior enemy.  Imagine if in 1977 Lucas went around the press bragging about his Vietnam allegory and telling everyone that the Emperor was really Nixon and we may as well refer to the heavy as "G. Gordon Vader" or something.  It wasn't until the release of the special editions that Lucas talked about this stuff in the DVD commentaries, well after the saga was cemented into the culture.

I personally care *zero* for who they cast in their movies, I just want good characters.  I enjoyed the new characters in TFA, I was willing to accept them despite the clumsy ANH rehash in the plot and the convoluted way they made the "good guys" into underdogs again.  Abrams didn't out and out shit on the OT characters like Rian Johnson did.  Johnson's response to people who think Rose and Holdo are horrible characters is to invoke the "Ghostbusters" defense and tell us that our criticisms come from a place of hatred of minorities and women.  No Rian, they are just idiotic characters.

I have a feeling that Solo is a competently made movie, but the fans were too recently broken and having junior Kasdan bragging about Lando's pansexuality is not the way to get them back.
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Paul Greer
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 8:39am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

The easiest thing you can do if you don't
like hearing writers and directors explain
their artistic choices is to not listen. I
sure as heck don't pay attention to such
nonsense. If you see SOLO you can tell the
pansexual comment is very tongue and cheek
based on the relationship between Lando and
his droid. L-3 makes a joke that Lando loves
her. When she dies he is upset. But to call
it pansexuality or to overthink it is the
viewers baggage brought to the movie. Not the
movie itself. This movie is so extremely
mediocre I hate defending it. But some people
want to criticize it for the wrong or
misinformed reasons.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 8:39am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

As Denzel Washington pointed out when the press asked if he thought it was an accomplishment for a Black person to win the "Best Actor" Oscar, it won't really be such until the individual's race is simply not an issue.

This is true across the board.

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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

"The Disney Star Wars films have never felt like they're building anything.  They've felt like they're milking something.  And I believe its starting to run dry."

Funny you say that, I came across this image over the weekend:



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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 9:28am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

I think one thing that's slowly becoming clear to me about this particular franchise is how important the myth of George Lucas was. Even consciously knowing Lucas was mostly making things up as he went along, there was a single source or filter through which the entire operation was delivered.

So where there was one man's agenda hidden in Lucas' 6 films, that is noticeably gone now. And, in its place, under the surface, there seems to be a lot of "stuff" within the new movies that's detectable without being very clear.
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

J.J. Abrams' THE FORCE AWAKENS (a "love-letter" to STAR WARS fans) lived up to expectations by bringing back the original cast in memorable ways plus laying the groundwork for the next two episodes involving new characters... then THE LAST JEDI blew that all to hell and left many disappointed (myself included). That story, to me, was conceived to split the audience and push the brand in a different, unfamiliar course. Anything Abrams set up was tossed aside.

I don't see that as "franchise fatigue" but as mishandling the franchise.

The STAR WARS brand is now in a free fall and I'm sure LucasFilm is counting on J.J. Abrams to "right the ship" in two years. Until then, there will be plenty of debating on what's happened the the franchise and whether it really needs fixing. I believe a balance of creativity and fan service (like Marvel Studio has accomplished) is needed.

-C!
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Steve De Young
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 10:14am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

I was talking about this with my wife yesterday.  Whether you're a fan of where Empire Strikes Back took the franchise or not, when it came out, look at what it added to the universe of Star Wars:  Yoda and a greater understanding of the Jedi, Lando and a glimpse at Han's past, Jabba's bounty hunters, a slew of new planets and technology (meaning cool toys for the kids, of whom I was one). Same with Return of the Jedi, whether the additions are liked or not, Endor and the Ewoks, finally seeing Jabba and his smuggler's den, finally seeing the Emperor and his imperial guard, etc.  Each film added to the world.

Starting with the Force Awakens, what has been added to the mythos by the Disney films?  We get a variation on a whole bunch of old characters, worlds, etc. slightly tweaked for nostalgia value.  Further, the story instead of moving forward rolls backward.  Now there's a new Empire with a new Emperor, with a new rebellion still fighting against him.  In Last Jedi, while the story went in (some pretty strange) new ways, once again, we get Snoke's guard who looks just like the Emperor's.  Walkers just like the ones from Empire and Return. The opening scene of the original film, with a rebel ship fleeing a star destroyer, drawn out for the entire film.  Nothing new.

Even the spinoff films are just 'filling in the blanks' with concepts, characters, and even stories that we already basically know.  That, to me, is milking it, rather than creating.


Edited by Steve De Young on 29 May 2018 at 10:15am
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Rick Whiting
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

STAR WARS has traditionally appealed primarily to nerdy White men, and trying to rebrand it into something exclusively for women and minorities is business suicide.

_______________________________


Greg, as an African American man who is a Star Wars fan and who knows plenty of other African American (and Latino and Asian American) SW fans, I can assure you that you are wrong on this. Star Wars has always been inclusive and diverse to some degree or another (I even heard that George Lucas wanted to originally cast an African American to play Han Solo). Other then that, I agree with most of what you said. Especially the part about Disney/Lucasfilms trying to alter SW so that it will appeal more to women (which I hear it is failing at). While SW has always had it's fair share of female fans, the majority of SW fans are indeed males (just like the Twilight Saga and The Hunger Games mainly appealed to females).





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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 29 May 2018 at 8:26pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

I partly see it like this:

I am a huge fan of Colossus, he is my favorite
character. Whenever I see a writer get his powers
wrong, or put him in a bad light (which is far too
often), or anything that would make him less of a
character compared to a popular character like
Wolverine, I get angry ... I don't like it. The same
thing could be happening to another character that I
don't give a damn about and I don't notice it ...
because I don't care about THAT character.

The average viewer who doesn't give a damn about Star
Wars overall, could walk into the theater and have a
great time ... love the movie.

But the guy who knows Star Wars inside out, like I
know Colossus, is going to get pissed when he sees
inconsistencies, beloved characters killed off in
stupid ways to make way for the NEW guys, seeing that
everything their favorite characters fought for ended
up being near meaningless and a complete failure, and
a slew of other things. It appeared that the makers of
these movies did not care about the die hard fans and
came in and did things their way.

- Girl can fly the Falcon like a pro, without ever
setting foot in a ship before (as far as I know and
how it came off in the movie)

- Girl turns on lightsaber for the first time in her
life and kicks the guys ass who has been training
forever. (they should have played up his wound he
suffered earlier to make it more believable)

- Girl is stronger in the force than any Skywalker.
Why? Why try to one up the previous movies? It would
have been more intense and interesting if she was
struggling with her powers, was weak at first but
growing.

- One upping the Death Star. Why? Why a whole planet
that has a weapon that defies logic? Why can't it be a
threat but not better than the Death Star?

- Blow up planet with ease. Weak, especially after it
has been done twice already.

I could go on.

The writers wanted to appeal to a new generation, and
those who don't care about Star Wars could easily like
it, but they could have easily done that anyway while
still honoring the original fans and movies.

The writers either did not care or were not die hard
fans themselves.


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Michael Roberts
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Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12106
Posted: 29 May 2018 at 8:32pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

While SW has always had it's fair share of female fans, the majority of SW fans are indeed males

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And the majority of SW fans are white, but that's not the point, and that's not what's problematic with Greg's statement. As you rightfully point out, Star Wars fandom has always had broad appeal among racial minorities AND women. And the assertion that Star Wars is failing at appealing to women does not mesh with the audiences that have turned out for the last two movies.

What's problematic is:

1) the suggestion that greater inclusion is an attempt to exclude white males. If race and gender don't matter, why is there a knee-jerk reaction when there are fewer white male faces that people are accustomed to? And if the inclusion of more minorities and women means the exclusion of white males, what does that mean for most of Hollywood film history where the converse was true?

2) the suggestion that storytelling is compromised by inclusion. STAR WARS was lightning in a bottle, and attempts to recapture it have led to varying degrees of success. Even Lucas was unable to do so with the prequels. THE LAST JEDI was polarizing with regard to Rian Johnson's storytelling and boiling that down to "Star Wars was ruined because of sucky female and non-white characters foisted on us because of an SJW agenda" is reductive and wrong. I liked TLJ, but from the discussions with people that hated it, I see more complaints about it not following through with the set up of THE FORCE AWAKENS than the fact that female characters were included.
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