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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 1
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The reply to Idris playing Bond is to ask if they're okay with Tom Cruise playing Black Panther, Will Smith playing Superman or Indiana Jones, Jackie Chan playing Luke Skywalker....etc etc etc••• That test doesn't work, since we've seen too many instances of White, and even male, treated as a place-holder by Hollywood. I can think of plenty of cases -- far too many, in fact -- of White actors playing other races, but the significant difference is that those characters retained their racial identity. Paul Muny played Chinese in THE GOOD EARTH, but the character was still Chinese. Marlon Brando played Japanese in TEAHOUSE OF THE AUGUST MOON, but the character was still Japanese. But when Will Smith played James West, the character became Black. If Idris Elba plays James Bond, the character will become Black.
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4274
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 2
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The reply to Idris playing Bond is to ask if they're okay with Tom Cruise playing Black Panther, Will Smith playing Superman or Indiana Jones, Jackie Chan playing Luke Skywalker....etc etc etc ************************************************************ ********************** Some of those don't quite work. The Panther being black is part of the character. King of an African nation and all that. Hard to cast a person of non-African decent in that role. Superman is an alien and while he is traditionally portrayed as a looking like a white human, there's nothing about his background saying he has to be.
Indy is more problematic give the 1930's setting. A non-white Indy would face issues not really suited for the type of films the Indiana Jones are. Not facing them is problematic as well.
Luke Skywalker is from a Galaxy far far way and a long time ago. A Star Wars remake doesn't have to keep him looking the same.
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 3
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For "James Olsen" on SUPERGIRL, they cast a tall, buff, bald, black guy in the role and I had actually come to like him in the part and I could appreciate the color-blind casting.
In last week's episode, James told the story of how he was arrested when he was nine just for being black in the wrong place. So, 70 years of the character's history is thrown out the window and replaced with the cause du jour.
Was this done for diversity's sake or to help a minority be better represented in pop culture? Well, should we point out how redheads are one of the world's smallest minorities? Or how Greg Berlanti replaces all the redheads on his DC shows with black people? What if (just for argument's sake) Berlanti has something against redheads? Is the casting still a socially acceptable thing?
(One might argue that no one cares about Jimmy Olsen anymore, so adapters can do what they want with him. But at one point in the 60's, Jimmy was more popular and sold a lot more issues than Spider-Man.)
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | 4
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So, 70 years of the character's history is thrown out the window and replaced with the cause du jour. ************************************************************ *********************** More of a cause des siècles
Though I'm not sure how this addition to Olsen's TV backstory throws 70 years of the character's history is thrown out the window. A history that's rarely been consistent. I seem to recall Jimmy as the son of a famous explorer/scientist back in the Silver Age. Later stories have him as a scrappy orphan from Suicide Slum.(Who probably had a run in or two with the law growing up)The key thing about Jimmy was he's a Sumerman's Pal and Lois and Clark's co-worker/friend. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Was this done for diversity's sake or to help a minority be better represented in pop culture? Well, should we point out how redheads are one of the world's smallest minorities? Or how Greg Berlanti replaces all the redheads on his DC shows with black people? What if (just for argument's sake) Berlanti has something against redheads? Is the casting still a socially acceptable thing? ************************************************************ ********************* It was done because the character is a black man living in the 21st Century and show is not shy about addressing social issues.
No, we shouldn't because being a redhead doesn't have the same history as being black.
Edited by Mike Norris on 26 May 2018 at 12:02pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132234
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 5
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Some of those don't quite work. The Panther being black is part of the character. King of an African nation and all that. Hard to cast a person of non-African decent in that role. Superman is an alien and while he is traditionally portrayed as a looking like a white human, there's nothing about his background saying he has to be.••• You have a job waiting for you in Hollywood. Again, being White is not just a placeholder. If I had been born Black, my whole life would have been different. So would the life of a Black James Bond.
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Andy Mokler
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Joined: 20 January 2006
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 6
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Why does it sound like there's no good reason for a character to be white but there are really good reasons for one to be black?
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 7
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Again, being White is not just a placeholder. If I had been born Black, my whole life would have been different. So would the life of a Black James Bond. ************************************************************ *********************** But would those differences mean he couldn't be a Commander in the the Royal Navy, an intelligence operative for British Intelligence and a suave ladies man who likes fast cars and martinis in the second decade of the 21st Century?
If this "black" Bond was born the same year as Elba it means he grew up in the last quarter of the 20th Century and not in decades prior to WWII like the Literary Bond.. That alone would change some things. Just last week a member of the Royal Family married a woman who's part black.
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 8
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Why does it sound like there's no good reason for a character to be white but there are really good reasons for one to be black? ************************************************************ *********************** Has someone said or implied that? There are perfectly good reasons why a character might be black, white, asian or whatever. Mostly based on that character's background. The Black Panther example I made show a character who should be black. It the character was called The White Wolf and was from a hidden society in Scandinavia white probably makes more sense. The Shining Knight, coming from Arthurian Britain, should probably be a white guy. The Arabian Knight, not so much.
Edited by Mike Norris on 26 May 2018 at 2:42pm
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Andy Mokler
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 9
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Has someone said or implied that?
Just about any time an established white character is changed to something else. James Bond, James West, Superman, Jimmy Olsen, Nick Fury...all of these characters and more are being argued that they don't need to be white.
But they "are". They didn't need to be when they were created but that isn't the same thing. Erasing a character and starting over seems perfectly acceptable with white characters but is it with others?
Wouldn't you say that there would be about the same lack of diversity in a Pantheon of Scandinavian Gods as a fictional African Nation? If both are based in reality but both are fictional, shouldn't the same rules apply? Cultural accuracy seems to be thrown out the window with Thor but conversely, seems vitally important to get "accurate" with Black Panther.
I don't know if over compensating for past mistakes is the answer but it seems to be what's going.
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Michael Sommerville
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 417
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 10
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Is "James Olsen", in any way Jimmy Olson. I can understand liking the character on the show. He can be well written and acted and an important rolle and still be just a co-opted name for a new character. Take away the race change and, tall, bald, buff still seems off for Superman's pal. I do not watch the show so I really am curious.
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Bill Collins
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Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | 11
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It irked me in an episode of New Who set in the time of
Vikings, that the villagers were Indian, black etc, it
just smacked of being PC for the sake of it, rather than
being factually accurate.Just create interesting
original ethnic characters.
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Michael Sommerville
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: 26 May 2018 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 12
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I agree with the argument, that Bond as a title does not work due to the consistent personality, character traits and interaction with non-lettered recurring characters.
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