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Bob Freeman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 880
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 3:40am | IP Logged | 1
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I was the manager of a Books-A-Million where I was required to be clean shaven. Having a beard did not impact my ability to do my job, and yet there it was.
My current job for an internet provider states that any personal work (ie art, creative writing, etc) done during "company time" is the intellectual property of the CEO.
Businesses make crazy demands all the time.
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Kevin Brown Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 May 2005 Location: United States Posts: 8839
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 6:47am | IP Logged | 2
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I think people fail to remember that the NFL did not require the players to be on the field for the National Anthem until 2009. So not only did they not have to stand then, they just stayed in their locker rooms to further prepare for the game ahead. So, essentially, the NFL is going back to what they used to do prior to 2009: giving teams and players a choice. It's just being wrapped up in a bow of controversy is all.
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 8:20am | IP Logged | 3
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This issue is complicated. DAMNED complicated. Anyone who just brushes it off as "That's what they should do!" or "They shouldn't have to do what they don't want!' isn't giving this enough thought. Not that this is surprising in our country...
ITEM: All of us, myself included, talk about this topic without knowing the bottom line. Every NFL player signs a contract with the team they play for, and there are restrictions, conditions, caveats, et. al. that define what obligations a player has, and what he is NOT obliged to do. Bottom line - to me, anyhow - is that a player is completely controlled by the rules established by the man/company whose signature is on that paycheck. After that... they're just as free as anyone. COROLLARY: If that contract says to stand for the national anthem, then they're paid to stand. If there is a clause to always represent their team in a good light, then they can't do anything embarrassing or insulting - during the anthem or other times.
ITEM: PRO-STANDING: The tradition of the national anthem at sporting events is long established, and I don't see a reason to change it. Obviously, if one cannot stand - wheelchair, illness, etc - then they shouldn't stand. If one disagrees, they shouldn't stand. But respect for the country is a good thing, I think, and it's not a time to make a statement. Scholars, or those among us who are old enough, may remember the 1968 Olympics, where two U.S. runners performed a black power salute during the national anthem. Again - not the time to make a statement, and especially not when being recognized and respected as Americans.
In the end, it's a matter of standing still for 1:40. Even if one doesn't believe in the United States or what it stands for... so very many Americans do. In respect of them... just stand there for that couple of minutes.. There are plenty of other times to make statements.
ITEM: PRO-CHOICE: This is all about tradition. Playing the national anthem, standing, singing along - all are respectable, but not legally mandated. The first law demanding such behavior is another bar in a prison cell for our citizenry.
It bothers me when I see cameras pan over players during the national anthem and players aren't singing along. But then, a lot of those in attendance aren't singing - maybe they can't sing, maybe they can't remember the words, whatever. They shouldn't have to. I DO sing, but it's my choice.
The method of making their statement ISN'T disrespectful. There's nothing wrong with kneeling, and if it's a different message - well, as everyone says, it's a free country. I don't see this as insulting or mockery... I see it as an opportunity to ask for freedom and justice. While a lot of people disagree with this gesture, so many people are entirely unaware of the crisis that they need to be aware of. If they find kneeling distressing... how much more distressing is the treatment of minorities in this country who are being harassed, hunted, and even killed? If one respects and supports America, shouldn't they be opposed to this mistreatment in the strongest possible terms - to support the American Way?
Now myself, I lean towards the liberal a bit. I wouldn't kneel, but I respect that this is a peaceful commentary, not disrespectful, and I acknowledge their message and their manner of making a point. Also, forcing people to stand, or to observe a ritual that they do not believe in smacks of a dictatorship far too much to make me happy.
And I also consider this point: where are these protests the rest of the week? I know what these men stand for at 1:00 on Sunday afternoon. Where are they Tuesday morning? Thursday evening? Friday night? Are they STILL out there trying to make people aware of this situation? Trying to educate others all week long? Or is it just easy, convenient, and even conformist in its way, to take a knee at the beginning of a football game - and then not do anything about it the rest of the week? I feel that THIS behavior shows a lack of courage of their convictions, and I hate the hypocrisy. As NFL players, they have a platform all the time; are they using that to make a message heard?
This is a staggeringly complicated issue, both in its actual effect and in its ramifications. I lean towards freedom of choice, but this is pretty deep.
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Shawn Kane Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 3239
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 4
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There is a part of me that likes the idea of an all-knowing, all-powerful God who can still let himself get into a football game enough to take a side.
My team's prayer was more about keeping all the players on the field safe. We didn't pray for victory. I admit that I do find it amusing when boxers thank God for helping them win.
Edited by Shawn Kane on 24 May 2018 at 8:25am
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35693
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 8:39am | IP Logged | 5
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I hardly think this discussion and the egregious decision put into place yesterday is simply "wrapped up in a bow of controversy". The NFL used the National Anthem in 2009 to further its own ends, to burnish their brand. That nearly nine decades passed (WWII, the Korean and Vietnam wars, Iraq, 9/11 and Afghanistan came and went during that time) without the requirement for players to be on the field for the Anthem is proof of that.
Seven years later when Colin Kaepernick first decided to kneel in peaceful protest in 2016, some people lost their collective shit. As has been noted, those same people hypocritically didn't rise up to defend the sheer number of sexual assault and domestic violence victims, only too happy to ignore it so that a player could stay on the field and their fantasy teams wouldn't be impacted. Others joined the protest in 2017 even while Kaepernick was shunned out of the league, to this day unsigned even as a practice squad player.
Then Trump joins the fray. He seized on an opportunity to use his nationalistic "Make America Great" policy by calling on NFL owners to fire anyone who dared peacefully protest. Not even a year later, the NFL capitulated without consulting the union which governs the players, a cowardly act meant to hide what truly makes America great: the right to protest that which a person finds unfair, untenable, abusive. Trump's response? Though he still doesn't like the idea of all players not being on the field, he thinks the decision "is good" and went on to say on today's "Fox & Friends" that athletes who don't stand "shouldn't be playing" while musing "maybe they shouldn't be in the country."
This quote from an op-ed in the Washington Post yesterday best sums up my feelings:
QUOTE:
The protesting players have spent months trying to dispel the idea that their protests are indicative of a lack of respect for the country, but what does the NFL do when given the opportunity to write a thoughtful policy statement? It goes back to that tired narrative, which makes it seem as if the players are protesting merely for the sake of protesting,” Brewer notes. “The league could have used this news event to show what it had learned amid all the fuss and prove the power of compassionate discourse. Instead, it chose to talk about ‘respect,’ as if giving a shout-out to Trump, the man who hijacked the issue and turned it into an oversimplified referendum on patriotism. |
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So, no, I don't think this is a case of people looking for controversy where there is none.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35693
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 6
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Eric Sofer wrote:
Scholars, or those among us who are old enough, may remember the 1968 Olympics, where two U.S. runners performed a black power salute during the national anthem. Again - not the time to make a statement, and especially not when being recognized and respected as Americans. |
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Seriously? I think it was the exact right time to make that kind of protest. When we start dictating the terms of when, where and who is allowed to protest, we've lost a vital part of what it means to be a citizen in the United States. You may not like it, but I know I for one will fight like hell for their right to say it.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35693
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 7
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Eric Sofer wrote:
And I also consider this point: where are these protests the rest of the week? I know what these men stand for at 1:00 on Sunday afternoon. Where are they Tuesday morning? Thursday evening? Friday night? Are they STILL out there trying to make people aware of this situation? Trying to educate others all week long? Or is it just easy, convenient, and even conformist in its way, to take a knee at the beginning of a football game - and then not do anything about it the rest of the week? I feel that THIS behavior shows a lack of courage of their convictions, and I hate the hypocrisy. As NFL players, they have a platform all the time; are they using that to make a message heard? |
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Before you call players who protest on a Sunday hypocrites for doing nothing else the rest of the week, I'd urge you to look into the charities they support, the community outreach they perform, the causes they help to raise money, and what they say in response to the inequities and abuse in America. Most of that doesn't get a single line in a national newspaper, a mention on a news broadcast or posted on a blog. It's not as "sexy" as kneeling during the National Anthem. But players do it all the time without the need to get recognition or accolades for it because it's the right thing to do.
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 8:56am | IP Logged | 8
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Matt - seriously. I don't disagree that their message was legitimate, and I wouldn't take away their right to make it.
But to the whole world? And I saw it as a gesture of disrespect to the United States - you know, the country they were representing at the Olympics.
There's a proper time and place for everything. I feel that that was not it. Back in the U.S., when interviewed about being medal winners - that would have been better.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
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Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 35693
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 9:03am | IP Logged | 9
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Absolutely 100% disagree. Again, start dictating the terms by which people can protest and we, as a nation, lose. Every. Single. Time.
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 10
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Matt R. - supporting charities and community outreach and money raising efforts would pretty much be included in "rest of the week" as far as I'm concerned. And I'll say that you hit the nail on the head in that such efforts absolutely SHOULD get recognition and accolades; THAT'S a way to make the situation more public and more visible.
And let me ask, if that North Korean summit had taken place - would that be an appropriate venue for one of the U.S. party to start standing up for gay rights in the USA?
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 11
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And I'll say that you hit the nail on the head in that such efforts absolutely SHOULD get recognition and accolades; THAT'S a way to make the situation more public and more visible.
——
But it doesn’t. You know what does call attention to the issue? Kneeling during the anthem.
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Eric Doyle Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 302
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Posted: 24 May 2018 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 12
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Absolutely 100% disagree. Again, start dictating the terms by which people can protest and we, as a nation, lose. Every. Single. Time.
------------------------------------------------------------ ---- NFL or any major league sport is, at it's core an entertainment company and the players are part of that. As an entertainment company their product has a brand that the NFL needs to protect. If an action by a player is damaging the brand while player is on the clock, I would support the NFL taking action to protect itself. Recently an artist for a Marvel comic added some visuals into the book as a form of protest, the company took steps to correct that action including firing the artist. If I choose to protest in my office by banging pots and pans together during work hours, I would expect to be fired. The NFL has rights as well, when a player is wearing an NFL uniform being broadcast via an NFL network, does the player as an individual have the right to use that forum to protest?
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