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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2292
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 8:02am | IP Logged | 1
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And at some point (fairly early on, if I recall correctly), the credits read simply "By Stan Lee + Jack Kirby" (or words to that effect)--a good example of Stan trying not to be misleading about the credit (while also not confusing the reader). He did not try to reduce Kirby's position by claiming he was "just" a penciler, but he also did not reduce his own valuable role of providing an entertaining script. And we know they worked on the plots together or we wouldn't have the famous anecdote about how Stan was surprised by Jack's post-plotting session inclusion of the silvery guy on the surfboard.
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Steve Coates Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 November 2014 Location: Canada Posts: 750
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 8:31am | IP Logged | 2
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Just a quick check on the Fantastic Four shows the first "produced by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby" credit was in FF #56 November 1966 issue. Not so early as you might think considering.
Edited by Steve Coates on 23 May 2018 at 8:32am
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4827
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 9:52am | IP Logged | 3
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The "Stan Lee & Jack Kirby" credits were probably more a reaction to Jack's growing disenchantment than anything else.
It was vague and didn't surrender plotting credit to Kirby, but didn't clearly give him the credit he wanted, so it may have been part of his eventual separation from Marvel.
Lee, Kirby and Sinnott were all important to the process, and it's unfortunate that fans feel a need to pick at it until it has gotten to the point of "Stan vs. Jack" for many of them. The whole process worked best with Lee, Kirby and Sinnott - no matter who did what to whatever extent.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132293
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 4
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The "Stan Lee & Jack Kirby" credits were probably more a reaction to Jack's growing disenchantment than anything else.•• Sorry, where was your office at Marvel?
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16430
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 5
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Steve Coates wrote:
...Just a quick check on the Fantastic Four shows the first "produced by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby" credit was in FF #56 November 1966 issue. Not so early as you might think considering... |
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That's not correct, unless you are specifically meaning the phrase "produced by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby." The credit boxes Stan used started at least a couple of years earlier, around 1964, and the earliest Fantastic Four comics had "By Stan Lee and Jack Kirby" written on a page somewhere.
Huh... Look at that....
1962
I can find more examples, if you like.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16430
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 6
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I should add that to those of us actually familiar with the original comics, and not simply relying on a quick Google search to inform us, the credit "By Stan Lee + Jack Kirby appeared on most of their collaborations, even before "Fantastic Four" #1, in the monster comics, before Stan formalized a credit box that credited not only his artists, but the letterer and colorist.
Stan's detractors want to continue to put forth that he never gave credit, which is beyond ridiculous in the face of the evidence. You can argue he didn't specify EXACTLY who contributed what to a creation in every instance, but he definitely credited his partners.
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16430
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 10:48am | IP Logged | 7
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Robert Bradley wrote:
...The "Stan Lee & Jack Kirby" credits were probably more a reaction to Jack's growing disenchantment than anything else... |
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Total nonsense.
Back in 1961, neither Stan nor Jack had any clue how big their creations at Marvel would become, yet Jack was still credited alongside Stan in most comics they did. It wasn't until Marvel started to become a big thing towards the later end of the decade that it appears Jack was becoming unhappy with the media attention that made it appear Stan Lee was the sole creator of Marvel's characters. And that was more the media, which typically simplifies and glosses over facts, than anything Stan Lee did directly. Frankly, I think Stan Lee has gotten all the flack because the media would not mention his partners, and blamed him for that.
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17671
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 8
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Stan was including the artist's name on books back during his MILLIE THE MODEL and MY FRIEND IRMA days, too.
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4827
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 11:37am | IP Logged | 9
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Matt - I'm referring to the the boxes that credited Stan as writer and Jack as artist becoming boxes crediting both equally.
As I'm sure you're aware, back in the early days you would occasionally (and more frequently in the '60s) see the front splash signed with the collaborators names (like on that Incredible Hulk page). But I wouldn't call those credits as we came to know them.
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Eric Ladd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 4506
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 10
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There may not have been a formal credit box on page one as with the page below, but there was certainly credit given to both Stan and Jack on Matt's page from the Hulk. Are we discussing if credit was given at all or if credit was given in a formalized box?
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17671
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 12:06pm | IP Logged | 11
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Ah, but Eric… Don't you get it? Even in the example you post, some will see Stan Lee slighting Roy Thomas by secretly ordering his name written so that the "T" abuts the side of the box.
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4827
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Posted: 23 May 2018 at 12:14pm | IP Logged | 12
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Just making observations about the various ways it was done.
If I were a new reader and picked up Incredible Hulk #1 I wouldn't have had any idea what either of them did. Stan's Soapbox, letters pages and credit boxes (among other things) really gave us a lot more information on the process than was available to most fans before.
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