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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 12:14pm | IP Logged | 1
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If this is a subject JB and/or the Mods rather not deal with please remove.
After the debacle that was the Captain America/Fascist Stooge story ended, it look as though Marvel looked to right the ship, at least a little bit. A new creative team came on for six issues, the first three of which I loved. The next three issues were a not so thinly veiled attempted at taking shots against the current administration.
A while back, they had sales issues after Marvel decided to literally replace every straight, white male character for someone of a more diverse race, gender, sexual orientation or ethnicity.
Now, I have no love for our current President and I'm all for inclusion. But I read comics to get away from the concerns of the real world. Is this just a trend or the way we now make comics?
The far right fans have gone on a personal crusade to attack creators that push agendas. Creators, for some reason, seem to engage them. Financially, it seems that promoting personal agendas has drastically effected some publishers' profits.
I have my opinions but I'd like to get some rational perspectives. What do you guys think about this, behind the scenes circus?
Edited by Stephen Churay on 26 April 2018 at 12:15pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133317
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | 2
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"I've never known any topic that was so dangerous it couldn't be TALKED about!"
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | 3
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Stephen Churay wrote:
Now, I have no love for our current President and I'm all for inclusion. But I read comics to get away from the concerns of the real world. Is this just a trend or the way we now make comics? |
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Stephen, for me, it's about balance (much like life).
I don't mind some political/social commentary - but at the same time, I do occasionally want to simply see Jimmy Olsen turned into a werewolf or Batman and Robin sent back to caveman times.
One problem I have noticed is when some fans expect EVERYTHING to be social commentary. Sometimes, I'll see a light-hearted, fun comic released, but some reviews are, "This isn't making a statement about anything, is it?" Must it? Every time?
For every movie that makes a political/social statement, I also want a WEEKEND AT BERNIE'S to enjoy!
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14857
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 4
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As a reminder, this occurred before the US has entered the war, and it elicited enough protests and threats from anti-war activists, isolationists, and Nazi sympathizers that Mayor La Guardia ordered police protection for Kirby and Simon.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12708
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | 5
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As long as any superhero story stays faithful to the essentials of the characters, then no "behind the scenes" agenda do any harm.
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 6
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As long as any superhero story stays faithful to the essentials of the characters, then no "behind the scenes" agenda do any harm. =======÷ Well, as far as what I've seen, that's debatable. A characters essence will be a smidge different m, depending on the readers sensibilities.
Now, one thing we have seen is sidelining a character and replacing them with an analog that fits a more socially diverse idea. Long standing characters at a couple of companies have been rebooted as a different race or had their sexual orientation changed after being around for decades.
In the case of the six issues of Captain America, I felt that, for the first three, Mark Waid was writing Captain America stories. For the last three, it felt like he was writing Mark Waid stories with Captain America in them.
When the half dozen or so YouTube channels came out blasting companies for doing this type of thing, being of a more conservative mindset, I started to take notice. But, I've come to realize, over time, that for these folks, trying to identify and shed light on a problem they see with comics, has become secondary, to picking a fight, with the creators. I don't have any use for that.
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Ed Aycock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1004
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | 7
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I've always found comics to be a good place for both fantasy and reality, the personal and political to merge. The mutants have been such an analogy for so many that it's been hard to not place politics on them and some stories feel as if they were deliberately political. I am going way back to 1986 and the "New Mutants" story where a student kills himself because he is a mutant and thinks X-Factor is going to come get him. I saw it so much as what I was feeling at that exact moment as being a young, closeted teen. I think it also exposed the creative flaw in X-Factor. Stories like that were wonderful.
Now, if you feel a writer is deliberately putting their own spin onto a character that you feel is inconsistent, nowadays, it's like the New England weather. Just wait a moment, it'll change.
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 8
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The original X-Men were created in part as a commentary on social divisions in this country. Captain America began with a political cartoon on the cover of his first issue. Superman battled crooked mine owners, automobile manufacturers, and war profiteers. GL/GA garnered considerable attention if not sales commenting on the issues of the day, at a time when Harry Osborn's drug abuse was being dealt with in Spider-Man. Cap once again drove straight down the middle of controversial politics in the original "Secret Empire" storyline strongly implying that the President himself was the man behind it. Questioning his own allegiances, he set aside his identity as Captain America yet continued to battle for good as Nomad.
If we stop using comics to comment on the world around us now, then we've surrendered our right to speak out as a medium and allowed ourselves to bow to fear mongers and disseminators of division and hate. Do you really think being good little boys and girls and keeping our heads down and mouths shut is the proper course of action for comics?
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Adam Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017 Posts: 1717
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 3:52pm | IP Logged | 9
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I think it's best to do satirical commentary if you're going to do political commentary at all in mainstream superhero comics. Just make fun of everything. (Anyone ever read "They Shoot Hulks, Don't They?" by Roy Thomas?)
Some things, however, should be non-controversial. Until recently white nationalists of various stripes were "coming out of the closet" because they thought it was now "their time" under Trump. So if a white supremacist gang invades Gotham and Batman gets really angry and beats the crap out of them, I say "break their legs, Bruce!"
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 10
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Um... we ARE still talking about comic books, aren't we?
I agree with Robbie P. pretty much entirely. One other discussion...
Political events (etc.) should be included if they serve the story. If they're distracting or a sore point, they should be left out. I can think of almost no comics that were specifically political - at least from DC or Marvel. Even super beings with strong political convictions aren't political comics.
There's likely been a comic about the president now and then... I think Lincoln got some good ink, and there were single issue stories where both Captain America and Superman were involved in becoming president. And Bruce Wayne became a senator once... but that was "Brave and the Bold" by Bob Haney, so it doesn't count.
I have no idea which way comic readers are swaying these days... but I'm pretty sure that "Real Democrat Comics! Adventures of the Left!" wouldn't sell very well (or its opposite number, if you wish.)
Maybe comics should be about comic book stories. Just one fogey's opinion.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 11
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Obviously it can be done, whether it should be done is up to whether you think a superhero comic, that's maybe been going for decades, is the place/audience to do it. I think it can be done well or done badly.
Re: Captain A pasting Hitler on that cover... I have a 1938 Life Magazine that is very explicit about the threat in Europe including examples of their anti-Jewish propaganda and political assassinations (including newly minted martyrdom of their own dead Horst Wessel) and translated quotes from 'mein kampf' circa when the razis invaded Austria. I think sometimes maybe people don't have that Jack Kirby creation in enough context, and Life was far from the only U.S. publication ringing the warning bells big time well before Pearl Harbor.
In an earlier era comics paid respect to whatever Pres was in office (JFK helping out Superman in Action Comics #309, Feb. 1964 cover date), but I think I remember Neal Adams drew at least a Nixon lookalike into some Green Lantern/Green Arrow montage of the crazy state of current affairs then which was well before the Reagan caricature in The Dark Knight books of 1986.
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3093
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 12
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Politics and social issues have been baked in since the beginning. Superman took on dictators, mine bosses and war profiteers in the first issues of ACTION COMICS.
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