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Bill Collins
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 8:10am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

`I guess the biggest thing, that is being frowned at
now, is women were drawn super hot. I don't think that
was a right wing thing back then, but it seems to be
now`

Of course, all the male superheroes are/were 90lb
weaklings!

I don`t care who writes or draws a comic as long as it
looks good and is written well, back in the 70`s/80`s
i had no idea of the colour or gender of many of my
favourite creators (I honestly thought Sal Buscema was
a female, we don`t get many Salvatore`s in the U.K.
even now!) I doubt knowing would have changed my
opinion of their work, if it`s good it`s good!
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 9:20am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Kelly Thompson, who writes for Marvel now*, was a blogger for CBR who once wrote that she'd follow a comic with a female lead even if it wasn't a good comic because it would encourage companies to have more female leads. I've seen a few other bloggers who have said the same about other representations. I can't spend money on a bad comic. 


*Funny story: She used to be active in her comments section and was very nice. She once commented to me that her opinion of Chris Claremont dropped because of X-Men Forever. They're both involved with the X-Men Wedding Special so I wonder if they've had any interaction?
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

She once commented to me that her opinion of Chris Claremont dropped because of X-Men Forever.

----

X-Men Forever read like fanfic. I don't even know how a writer can write fanfic of his own work, but Claremont managed to do so.
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 11:31am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I agree. Not a favorite but a Claremont written/Grummett drawn book was nice. I didn't like The End series either. 
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I buy/watch Supergirl through thick and thin I guess, same for Go Girl. Also I bought various Trina and Barb Rausch paper doll type comics to support them existing more than read them. I never liked Wonder Woman though, sorry. If she was on a battle kangaroo I'd think that was cool but the character just never has spoken to me. :^)
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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 Mike Norris wrote:
Meyer sounds like a horrible person. Nothing I've read convinces me otherwise.

He is. He's utterly horrible, his offenses go far beyond the simple "rabble-rousing" some may try to characterize him as doing. And when caught on tape saying some repugnant things about people in the industry, from accusing woman of using sex to get hired and comparing others to pedophiles, his main defense was that was for a private group, I wish someone hadn't leaked it.



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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

 Shawn Kane wrote:
Kelly Thompson, who writes for Marvel now*, was a blogger for CBR who once wrote that she'd follow a comic with a female lead even if it wasn't a good comic because it would encourage companies to have more female leads. I've seen a few other bloggers who have said the same about other representations.

I had that mentality when I was younger. Back in the 90's I would make a point to buy comic-books with Black leads for that same reason. I knew if a "Black book" failed, people in the industry would say "it failed because it's Black" (yet books with White male leads can fail over and over again - even today, people love to point to the failure of "diverse" titles, as proof of some failed agenda, but say nothing when a book like SOLO fails) and be less-likely to try again with other Black characters (that would hopefully be better). So yeah, I bought the whole run of books like that boring-ass 90's CAGE series, and that blatant Spawn rip-off NIGHTWATCH, just in hopes that they would succeed.

Of course this was in my younger  much-less-responbility-having days, where I was routinely spending a couple of hundred a month on comics (including pretty much everything Image published), because I could afford to. Those days are long gone. Now I'll still make a point to try out an issue or two of a new comic with a Black lead, but if it's not good I'll drop it.


Edited by Jabari Lamar on 16 May 2018 at 1:30pm
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Rodrigo castellanos
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 7:11pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I've not been following this "Comicsgate" debate closely, nor do I watch SUPERGIRL or read current Marvel but I find Star Trek and Star Wars fans saying they don't want any political allegory mixed with their entertainment uproaringly funny.
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Steven Myers
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I buy Ms. Marvel because it's the best comic Marvel has currently, and my favorite regular title period. Love the Champions, too. Though I wish they didn't copy the older heroes code-names so much. New Nova and Spider-Man are very good characters that have nothing to do with their predecessors, for instance.

But that strays off-topic. I like Waid's Captain America story. I didn't notice it being overly political. 
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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Here's a Fair and Balanced reporting of the so-called "comicscate" story, 
and Mr. Meyer:

No Enemy But Peace – Richard Meyer, Antarctic Press, and Jawbreakers
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 9:06pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Steven, I found the first three issues of
Waid's current run to be great good old
fashioned comic books. The next three
issues where Rogers is in the future is
pretty overt. I don't have issue in front
of me, but Bruce Banner says something, in
issue 700, that removed doubt as to
whether or not he was trying to be
political.

Jabari, I agree with you that what is on
that tape is repugnant. When I said he can
go too far which hurts the credibility of
his message, this is what I was talking
about. But context can be important. This
tape is a recording of something called a
"dark roast". It is intended to be
humorous satire making fun of people using
filthy, dark humor. It doesn't make it
right, or any less repugnant, but it is
one man's very poor attempt at being
funny. I also think, this type of humor
playing to the lowest common denominator
has a habit of stirring a pot, causing a
few of his hardcore fans to say and do
stupid damaging things. Still, to my
knowledge, he hasn't broken the law.

The response by some in the industry has
been, "You think this is so easy, you
write and produce a book!"So, he is. Now,
it's not illegal for a shop to say,"We're
not going to carry it." They are perfectly
within their right to do so. But, again,
just from the outside looking in, calling
Antartic Press and them backing out of a
contract after that phonecall, or calls
were placed...that might be illegal.

Edited by Stephen Churay on 16 May 2018 at 9:09pm
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 9:34pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply


 QUOTE:
This  tape is a recording of something called a  "dark roast".

A roast is done with the consent of the roastee. Talking shit about people is just being an asshole. 


 QUOTE:
But, again,  just from the outside looking in, calling  Antartic Press and them backing out of a  contract after that phonecall, or calls  were placed...that might be illegal.

Publishers drop controversial authors all the time. The idea that Waid “bullied” a publisher into dropping a book through a single phone call is risible and vastly overestimates the power that he wields.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 17 May 2018 at 2:09am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

All this attention for Meyer's fannish-looking comic project is probably going to make him a millionaire. And maybe sue the pants off Mark Waid. This is why folks should avoid feeding trolls! 

Edited by Joe Zhang on 17 May 2018 at 2:10am
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 17 May 2018 at 8:49am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

When he first started posting videos, I would agree with him on certain points on many Marvel comics: bad art, bad characterization, fan fiction style stories (all, of course, my opinion) but he started getting petty in his criticism*. Some of his response was a result of some thin-skinned pros but he started playing "I can sink lower than you" and at that point, he lost me. His valid points were now being overshadowed by the fact that he's not a very nice guy. 

He wasn't breaking the law but a lot of his accusations were rumor and innuendo. Does he have proof that Jordan White has an unhealthy obsession with Heather Antos? Does he know for sure that Mark Waid pulled strings for a "work girlfriend"? Or is it speculation because he doesn't like how they write and draw comics? Mark Waid and Mags Visaggio use very aggressive language in their social media like they're trained fighters (like much of social media, I question if any of these people have ever been in a real fight because maybe they wouldn't be so keen to look for one). Dan Slott and Nick Spencer do not respond well to people who question their work online but once again, critique Slott's Spider-Man not his appearance. If Spencer wants to be angry about people voting for Trump instead of Hillary but you don't like his Captain America, focus on the latter not the former.  


*I dislike a lot of dialogue in Marvel comics today because it is very fan fiction-y to me. Things like a character in the X-Men saying "To me, my X-Men" or someone saying to a member of the X-Men "Isn't dying your thing?" take me out of the story! It's too "inside baseball" for me. I know we all read the same comics but I don't expect Kitty to have a copy of X-Men #1 to know that Professor X said that. I dislike the fact that everyone seems to know everyone else's adventures as if they all discussed them over coffee "Hey She-Hulk, remember that time we fought in Secret Wars? Good times..."
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 17 May 2018 at 12:35pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Shawn I think you nailed it. Although I
wouldn't use the videos to determine what
type of person he is. I think "Zack" is a
bit of a persona. Mostly him, but still a
persona playing to a crowd. Sadly a good
bit of which are engaged with his videos
using the same mentality that kept people
entertained by Jerry Springer. I think in
the beginning he made videos because the
current state of mainstream comics upset
him, and he found an audience. But,
YouTube can make you money. Now I think
there is a certain amount of his videos
geared more towards entertaining.

========
All this attention for Meyer's fannish-
looking comic project is probably going to
make him a millionaire. And maybe sue the
pants off Mark Waid. This is why folks
should avoid feeding trolls!
......
Funny thing, I never knew this gut or any
of the others even existed until Mark Waid
through a tantrum about him in November.
It was mentioned that Meyer may attend a
convention Waid was signing at and he went
crazy on twitter. Waid taking this guy on
is what brought the crowd funded comic to
my news feed.


To be completely open, I went and reserved
a copy of his crowdfunded book. After it
making such a stink, I wanted to read it.
If it's some form of conservative
manifesto I'll let you guys know. Just
because I am conservative doesn't mean I
want to read about it in my comics. I read
comics to get away from real world issues,
not to be put in the middle of them. If I
like it I'll tell you. If it's garbage,
I'll tell you.
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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 17 May 2018 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

I've known of Richard C. Meyer for at least 8 years now. Under the name "MeyerAustin" he was an active and well-known comic-book message board participant. Particularly he liked popping up on predominantly liberal forums, like Gail Simone's on CBR and then later the 606 forum, stirring up trouble, and then running back to Conservative forums like Chuck Dixon's to whine about how all the intolerant liberals were picking on him. He was the same then as he is now, just with a bigger platform. "Dark humor" MY ASS. This is who he is.

I only heard of the D&C channel and Patreon, and his involvement with it, a few months ago. When I did take a brief look at it, I saw that he'd posted an 11-page fan-fiction comic where RiRi Williams has succeeded in ruining Tony Stark's life, stealing his company, and driving him to suicide, by falsely accusing him of rape (as women constantly do, y'know). That told me all I needed to know.

If he wants to crowdfund his own comics, well good for him. As the article I posted said, getting 4000 and then 6500 pledgers IS impressive. Good for him, I take nothing away from that accomplishment. And it shows that those who do want to read it, can get it. But no publisher is obligated to pick it up.. And he can't whine like a baby when a publisher looks at Meyers own past public statements and decides that they don't want to be in business with him, especially when that's exactly what Meyer and his supporters did to Aubrey Sitterson.

Likewise, no store is obligated to stock the book, although I do think those who said that they wouldn't order it even if a customer asked for it, are not doing good business. But that's their problem.

And "politics" in entertainment are not inherently good or bad. Some may look to entertainment, be it comics or movies or music, whatever, to "get away from the real world", while others make like it when they're entertainment tackles real-world issues. To me it depends on the situation and how its handled. As I said yesterday over on the TV forum I'm a big fan of Last Man Standing and am glad it's returning, because, to me, the show is just funny. I don't have to agree with the "Mike Baxter's" political views, any more than I agreed with how "Barney Stinson" treated women on How I Met Your Mother. The characters and the shows were still funny to me.

On the other hand, I was never a fan of the Roseanne show in the past, so I have no interest in watching it now. It has nothing to do with her and her character's politics.



Edited by Jabari Lamar on 17 May 2018 at 4:00pm
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 17 May 2018 at 10:32pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Jabari, I'm not disagreeing with you about
Meyer. I simply wanted to be fair and give
his statements a little context, and even
after that, I called what he did
repugnant.

I agree, that even if I think there is
something in what he says to be true,
there is too much shock jock, Jerry
Springer mentality to treat the messenger
as legitimate. This for me isn't a "Hey,
who wants to get on this guy's bandwagon".
I'm just researching how fandom got so
toxic, and is there any truth or even
solid ground for these people to soap box
on. I agree, it's toxic. I got the book to
see if he can back up his rhetoric. Maybe
he can. Maybe he can't. I'm guessing it's
going to read like a very 90's thinly
plotted Image comic.

As to Waid's involvement getting the book
canceled...I mentioned him because he is
the only one I can factually prove called
the publisher. Some reports say that the
publisher got flooded with calls from the
group of store owners that met on
Facebook. Assuming that's not true, Waid
doesn't have to threaten. He is a third
party who directly contacted the
publisher. I have to believe that a
publisher would do it's due diligence
before offering someone like Meyer a
publishing deal. Then they pulled the
deal. What changed? Waid's call came in
the middle. Was it the loan deciding
factor? Was it a factor at all? I don't
know, as I said, it looks illegal, but the
truth is, the Federal Trade Commission
will determine that. Is the Sitterson the
same thing. Yes and no.

I got no defense for Sitterson. If his
Twitter comments were going to upset
anyone, it was going to be the readers of
the book he was writing. Please, please
inform me further, but I could find no
harassment of him until he made stupid
comments about 9/11 on Twitter. When asked
about it he doubled down and profest to
being a socialist. A man's opinions and
beliefs are his own but he was writing a
G.I.Joe: A Real American Hero comic.
That's never going to go well.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 17 May 2018 at 11:28pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

I've watched dozens of Meyer's videos. He doesn't seem to be a racist or have sexist / homophobic / transphobic ideas. But he quite clearly hates active liberalism in comics and goes after specific pros with a great deal of venom. I'm neutral about the so called "SJW" creators. If their books don't make any money, sooner or later publishers will have to stop hiring them or go bankrupt. And if they do make money for their publishers, good for them. Comics is not really my hobby anymore anyways.

My own reservation about Meyer is that he is from that group of readers who look to early 90's Marvel, early Image, and early Quesada-Marvel as how comics should be. He also loves 80's Marvel, but a look at his work reveals his heart is in the latter stuff. I happen to think that stuff is rotten to the core, so I guess I'm an even more conservative fan than he is. 


Edited by Joe Zhang on 18 May 2018 at 4:18am
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 18 May 2018 at 6:20am | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Just because I am conservative doesn't mean I 
want to read about it in my comics. I read 
comics to get away from real world issues

Same here, Stephen. I'm a Christian who is registered Republican. I feel I'm more Libertarian because I'm also pro-choice (my wife and I are pro- life personally but don't want our will forced on others), I have no problem with gay marriage and I don't feel that everyone has to believe what I believe. And I appreciate a well told story that offers me a different perspective. A good storyteller doesn't need to hit you over the head with a message. Unfortunately, those types of creators are few and far between in comics today because, like many other forms of media, they force you to take a side. I find that every day life is much different than life that is lived on Twitter. Regular people tend to find ways to get along. Meyer feels that every comic book should be tailored to his tastes (shapely woman, manly men) but you and I both know that if every comic was the same, we'd lose interest real quick.

I'm a big fan of Last Man Standing and am glad it's returning, because, to me, the show is just funny.

Judging a show on enjoyment so much more rewarding than thinking about the message behind it for me. Fox News tries to prop up those shows as conservative shows but if they're entertaining and funny to people, who cares what their politics are?

My own reservation about Meyer is that he is from that group of readers who look to early 90's Marvel, early Image, and early Quesada-Marvel as how comics should be.

Joe, I couldn't quite put my finger on how I viewed his tastes in comics but that pretty much nails it. I feel that, while sales were high in the early 90's (speculator inflated sales), we lost a lot of diversity that was established in the 70's and 80's at Marvel. Luke Cage had been pretty much pushed aside at the end of Power Man and Iron Fist, Monica Rambeau Captain Marvel had been forgotten about just to name two characters. And diversity in art had become a thing of the past (I know Marvel always had the Romita model "House Style" but tell me how much JB, Simonson, and JRjr's art looked alike and I will disagree).


Edited by Shawn Kane on 18 May 2018 at 6:40am
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 18 May 2018 at 7:31am | IP Logged | 20 post reply

> (my wife and I are pro- life personally but don't want our will forced on others)

*****

If you're going to be pro-life, that's the way to do it. I'm not of that mindset, but I really don't think men should have a say in the rules for things that they can't experience.

This Meyer guy seems like a real piece of shit who I will add to my "travel back in time and stop" list.
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 18 May 2018 at 7:46am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Basically, if my wife were to choose to have an abortion, I wouldn't protest. She just happens to be pro-life as well.
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Richard Stevens
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Posted: 18 May 2018 at 7:50am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Makes sense. That's internally consistent and her right.
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Ed Aycock
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Posted: 18 May 2018 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Rebecca Jansen wrote:

"I kind of found Art Spiegelman's Maus a bit uncomfortable for reasons other than the family history shared in it (with talking animals, um, er, why?)."

I thought "Maus" was fantastic and devastatingHere's an article about why he employed animals.
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Jabari Lamar
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Posted: 18 May 2018 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

 Stephen Churay wrote:
Jabari, I'm not disagreeing with you about Meyer.

 

Yes you are.

 

 Stephen Churay wrote:
I simply wanted to be fair and give his statements a little context,-

 

A context that he “doesn’t really mean it”, which is B.S.

 

 

 Stephen Churay wrote:
-and even after that, I called what he did repugnant.

 

But still try to excuse it as joking and just playing a character.

 

 

 StephenChuray wrote:
I mentioned him because he is the only one I can factually prove called the publisher.

 

That is no different than tweeting or FB messaging someone, which is what happened in the Sitterson situation. People contacted a publisher and told them what a person they were in business with had said publicly, and the publisher decided that the words were offensive enough for them to stop doing business with that person.  That’s all. Dunn himself said he wasn’t “threatened”by Waid. There was nothing illegal in either situation. You can believe otherwise if you want, but I really wouldn’t recommend holding your breath waiting for some FTC charges against Mark Waid.

 

True Story: Years ago there was a man named Rick Olney (now deceased), a failed publisher and comicon organizer, who was known for cheating dozens of artists and writers out of thousands of dollars. It finally came to a head when many comics pros, principally Gail Simone, as well as Tony Isabella and Chuck Dixon, made it a point to inform as many people as possible of his misdeeds so that he couldn’t cheat others. At one point Olney claimed to be working with Ben Dunn, after which I contacted Dunn on Deviant Art to warnhim of Olney’s history, which Dunn thanked me for and told me he would take that into consideration. Olney also made lots of threats of suing people for “libel”and other crimes against him, but that never came to anything.

 

 

 Stephen Churay wrote:
Please, please inform me further,but I could find no harassment of him until he made stupid comments about 9/11on Twitter.

 

The point is that people, including Meyer, took Sitterson’s own words and informed the publisher he was working for about it, in the hopes that the publisher would drop him. Which they eventually did.  And now others have taken Meyers own words and informed the publisher he was going to work with about it, and that publisher dropped him. Thus, Meyer's complaints are hypocritical.

 

 Stephen Churay wrote:
A man's opinions and beliefs arehis own but he was writing a G.I.Joe: A Real American Hero comic. That's never going to go well.

 

Yes, you can believe and say what they want. And when yourwork, whatever it is, depends on support from the public, you need to acceptthat, like it or not, sometimes the public may choose not to support your work based on what you say. 

Now I'm done with this topic. 




Edited by Jabari Lamar on 18 May 2018 at 9:08am
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 18 May 2018 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

I'm torn on the whole "they're a jerk on social media so they should be fired" issue. On one hand, if a person wants to help sell a product, they should be reaching out to a wide audience to sell that product. If I've hired you and you make inflammatory statements to turn off half the audience, I don't want you working for me. It's self defeating. At the same time, a boss should not necessarily dictate what a worker should be allowed to share or discuss on social media to a certain extent. The Sitterson case is one where he wanted to do a G.I. Joe comic more in line with the cartoon. He didn't military background like Larry Hama. It was out of line for him to decide how people should view a national tragedy with his "If you weren't in New York when it happened..." attitude. It was a snotty comment and smacked of an elitist attitude but maybe not fair to cancel his book. But for a title that wasn't going to sell a lot of comics out of the gate, angering potential buyers wasn't smart. I'm a teacher at a high school and if I go on Twitter or Facebook and post something that is going to alienate the parents of my community, I'm getting called into the office the next day. Sitterson angered G.I. Joe fans with a statement that showed disdain for a possible element of the audience*. Not a smart business move.

*Not me, I'm a Larry Hama purist when it comes to G.I. Joe.


Edited by Shawn Kane on 18 May 2018 at 9:53am
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