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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 29 April 2018 at 4:06pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Mr. TERRIFIC wasn't a part of the team?
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 29 April 2018 at 7:54pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I think he was strictly JSA. 
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 29 April 2018 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

The Connor Hawke Green Arrow and Steel were on Morrisonís JLA at the same time, no? Although artists kept forgetting that Connor was mixed-race. If you drop the men qualifier, Black Lightning and Vixen were on Meltzerís JLA together. 
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 29 April 2018 at 10:17pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Blonde Connor Hawke (are we ever going to see him again? I wonder) kept reading as White, for the reason to just mentioned.

True about Vixen and Black Lightning on the JLA during Meltzer's run, which I didn't read, because I hadn't forgiven him for INFINITE CRISIS, and still haven't, though his contribution to ACTION COMICS #1000 is quite good.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 14 May 2018 at 3:21pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Ok, this gets into what i really wanted to discuss, with
this thread...Does anybody know who Richard C. Meyer is
and the internet war going on between him and Mark Waid?

Edited by Stephen Churay on 14 May 2018 at 3:22pm
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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 14 May 2018 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

"Using Mainstream Comics As Political and Social
Commentary"

Did the title get changed?

The thing that bothers middle-of-the-road to hard
right type of people is that media -- comics, network
news, TV, Hollywood, late night TV, comedians, etc are
over-saturated with strong left leaning views that act
like "the right can do no good" and should have no
space to exist, or come off that way at least. Clumping everyone into a racist umbrella, etc.

This is just one of the factors that got Trump
elected, people were sick of it.

I would prefer comic characters to be more fair on
individual issues, leaning right on some, and left on
some, just like regular folks. Not lumping everything
plus the kitchen sink into a bag that can be labeled.

Edited by Thomas Woods on 14 May 2018 at 3:49pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 14 May 2018 at 5:41pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I think if you are going to have a character in anything express an opinion it's generally a good idea to have someone with a different view shown along with it for balance... I'm thinking of the new Roseanne show here more than say All In The Family or 'Til Death Us Do Part where one side is a caricature. If as a writer you can't write from multiple viewpoints you are maybe in the wrong business in my opinion.

I'm not sure about making statements in the format of a super-powers, or otherwise fantasy, scenario; even at best it's not quite playing straight after all. I kind of found Art Spiegelman's Maus a bit uncomfortable for reasons other than the family history shared in it (with talking animals, um, er, why?). It's a bloody tricky thing to pull off such things and have the respect of a majority of readers/viewers. Gene Roddenberry might be a best case scenario. If I have something capital 'I' important to say, or a War And Peace in me, why would I have colorful costumes and a lot of fantasy elements? I guess I'm a skeptic still on comic stories being fully mature... maybe Joe Kubert's Fax From Sarajevo?
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Wallace Sellars
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 5:24am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Some of you may find The Truth Podcast's recent "Justice Battalion" episode
enjoyable (or at the very least, interesting) since it touches on themes
mentioned here.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 7:11am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

"Using Mainstream Comics As Political and
Social
Commentary"

Did the title get changed?
======
No the title didn't change.
Simply pointing to the behind the scenes
mess about Meyer's video commentaries
about Marvel comics being used as a social
and political manifesto. Waid seems to
have taken exception to it.
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

I followed that story and even agreed at times with Diversity & Comics but he went way over the line with some things. The pros that he is arguing with are not much better but the personal attacks on both sides is pretty sad. The idea that someone does not want you to read their comics because of how you vote is ridiculous. The idea that a comic is not to your liking so you want the talent fired all the way up to the editor-in-chief is equally ridiculous maybe worse. It shows that lack of maturity among the fans and people working in comics. We almost expect it from a certain number of fans but the fact that the pros are stooping to that level is bad as well.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Shawn, the core of Meyer's argument about
an SJW movement beyond diverse characters
is one I agree with. I find a good chunk
of the dialogue to have contempt of the
straight, white, male portion of society.

Like you I think Meyer has crossed a line
on a few occasions. My theory is, if you
want to criticize creators to get better
product, don't stoop to childish name
calling.

Dan Slott tweeted him to make his own
comic, and create the content he wants to
see. So, he did. His online funded book
got over 6500 buys and a quarter of a
million dollars in funding. This caught
the interest of Antarctic Press. They
decided to publish the book after the
online campaign was honored. Then things
got stupid.

Here is what I know to be fact after
seeing screen shots.

Mark Waid, who is also a store owner, got
together with other shop owners, on
Facebook to block ordering Meyer's book
from being ordered. The group also decided
to not fill orders of customers who
directly asked for the book.

Meyer published a list of stores that
wouldn't carry the book. He did ask that
the stores be left alone yet store phone
numbers were on the list.

Waid admits via social media that he
personally contacted Antartic Press.
What was said is not completely known.

After this phone call, Antartic Press
releases a statement saying they have
changed their minds. They are backing out
of their agreement and are not publishing
the book anymore.

All of Mark Ward's social media accounts
have been shut down. Facebook, Twitter,
everything.

Meyer has filed a suit against Mark Waid
with the Federal Trade Commission.

Other things have been said but I haven't
anything to back it up. The rest is he
said/He said.

This went from people talking ugly to each
other, to something that feels a bit more
sinister.
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 12:43pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

To be fair, Meyer throws gas on the fire because his valid points are often overruled by his obsession with calling out pros who he disagrees with. He and others couldn't let Heather Antos post a dumb picture on Instagram without him first mind reading and trying explain that's why Marvel comics are big sellers. Granted there's a difference between today's editors and the more professional editors of the past but that's more of a sign of the times. Remember how Marvel treated JB under the Joe Q Regime?

Bloggers and the Twitter-verse call out Marvel for not employing female or black writers and all of the sudden, a tidal wave of new books come out with press releases touting the hiring of female and black writers. Marvel is called out for not having female-led comics and we get swamped with every B-level and C-level female character in their own book.* The thing I always appreciated about Christopher Priest/Jim Owsley, Louise Simonson, Keith Pollard, Ann Nocenti, Dwayne McDuffie, Mark Bright, June Brigman, Darryl Banks and Mary Jo Duffy is that they were professionals working on comics. I never thought "It's great that a woman is writing Power Man and Iron Fist" or "It's great that an African American is writing Spider-Man". I don't begrudge Marvel hiring people but I do feel it's insincere when they have to follow it with a press release to show how diverse their talent roster is. You were denying people the opportunity to begin with (since they do the hiring), possibly discouraging people from trying to enter the field and now we're supposed to gush at how wonderful Marvel is now?

*I remember blogs making fun of Squirrel-Girl for the longest time when she was just linked to Steve Ditko but now she's the greatest find of the decade because someone with a Tumblr thinks she's cool?


Edited by Shawn Kane on 15 May 2018 at 8:31pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 12:51pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Teapot + tempest? The pendulum swings one way, then the other; is it wrong to want to see the swings kept to a minimum and to maybe not encourage them by giving them too much attention?
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

When the books they produce sell under
19,000 copies, you hope there will be an
industry for the pendulum to swing back
on.

Champions #17 released in February sold
18,600 copies. It was written by Mark Waid
and drawn by Humberto Ramos.
The books features the new Ms. Marvel, the
new Hulk, the newish Spider-Man and the
newish Nova, Ironheart (female Iron M an)
and the n ew female Vision. These are the
characters they've been promoting.

The Heather Antos milkshake photo wasn't
just Antos. It wasn't really about having
a milkshake. It was all of the Asst.
Editor hires that were brought in to quiet
the masses. All females who unfortunately
didn't seem to be doing a very credible
job. Most of them have moved on or have
been let go. But, while there, the Asst.
Editor's were running the day to day
issues with the books and the talent.
When the photo dropped on Antos' Twitter
account, it got blasted by angry fans as
they saw a collective of what they felt
was the problem with Marvel. Meyer was one
of them. I only post this because most of
the reporting at the time never gave it
context.

I agree that Meyer has been over the line,
but not as often as his detractors would
have you think. Meyer isn't the only voice
on YouTube either. There are at least a
half a dozen channels devoted to the issue
and the number is growing.

I never knew this existed until the report
came out that Waid want to square off with
Meyer at Baltimore-Con last year. So, i
started to research the subject from both
angles. Now it seems that a communication
Waid (and rumored others) had with
Antartic Press could possibly be beyond
the petty gripe-fest, and actually
breached into criminal activities.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

"you hope there will be an industry for the pendulum to swing back on."

H*ll yeah. Just as records are being set by the movies, comic books are teetering on no longer being a mass-medium, more a glorified collectable fanzine community. When you hear of twenty 'alternate' covers of an issue #1 you might get a hint why... never mind inclusivity or diversity at all costs. Seeing character X as a female or supposed 'minority' really isn't grabbing me in the least. You know what would though? I mean aside from good writing and decent non-exteme muscles and boobs art? New creations!!! And as for the old ones, you can follow up the movies with accessible (non-multiple tie-in crossover milking of fans) and recognizable comic books. Comic books are not future-historically-important burning-issues-addressing graphic-sequential-narratives. They are affordable light melodrama usually, but I really liked them and am prepared to like them again like all those people paying to see the recycled movie versions of them. Melodrama not good enough? Go write your fourteen part, three title masterpiece with super powers elsewhere. Who looks to comic books for all this extraneous social jazz and where has that actually paid off?

Green Lantern/Green Arrow by Denny O'Neil & Neal Adams did not actually sell well, it was shifted to the back of The Flash and then brought back as more basic adventure by Mike Grell. I know they meant well and were trying to 'deal' with issues and the times and all, but it was continually preachy cutting into the entertainment aspect. I might even be 100% in agreement with the poilitics and sentiments of such things, but too much of it and it kills the motor of these concepts which after all were mostly dreamed up with 8-12 year old readers in mind, sorry.

I think it's great that there are diverse characters , there have been for quite awhile, but if it is white males mostly buying super hero comics... well, do the math. No problem here. I still have read about them, and read about female characters written by men, black characters written by white people, and vice-versa.

Missing: solid involving stories, new characters, and art that is not more suited to fringe interest undergrounds.

Missing: general audience accessible distribution.

Missing: actual business people as opposed to dream fulfilling fans turned pros.

Missing: f u n.

Comic books were affordable, fun to read and collect, they were colorful, unpretentious, friendly, and they sparked creativity beyond tracing or wanting the ego boost of seeing your name on something already famous. How could all that be an anachronism or so out of fashion? The only one stopping anyone from making such comics is ultimately themself.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

Financially, the industry to a nosedive
last year. Meltdown Comics closed. I
repeat Meltdown Comics Closed! As big as
it was, it diversified it's income with a
stage space for comedy and open Mic
nights, the sale of original artwork and
podcasting. They were one of, if not the
largest comic shops on the west coast.
They are gone.

I don't condone many of Meyer's tactics,
but his notion that comic companies,
especially Marvel tend to look at
themselves as social clubs that produce
comics where everyone needs representation
And the books need to discuss it as
opposed to a business selling fun
adventure stories seems pretty on the
nose.

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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 5:02pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Wow, that Meyer guy has raised $273,309 indiegogo
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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

No the title didn't change.
Simply pointing to the behind the scenes
mess about Meyer's video commentaries
about Marvel comics being used as a social
and political manifesto. Waid seems to
have taken exception to it.

---

Oh, I wasn't trying to be snotty, when I got an email
on the thread it looked alien to me, even though I
posted on it, so it made me think the tile may have
been something else before.
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Stephen Churay
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

No worries, Thomas. Yeah, the number of
copies he has sold would've made him the
third highest selling graphic novel for
the month of April.

Right now, I'm interested if there will be
any action taken against Waid for, what at
least on the surface, appears to be,
interfering with the Antartic Press
contract.
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

Meyer sounds like a horrible person. Nothing I've read convinces me otherwise.  
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

I got into a debate with a guy in the comments section at the Beat who proclaimed that no one had a problem with how "Reaganized" Marvel Comics were in the 80's. He basically said that JB, Stern, and Simonson were writing comics from a right wing point of view! I personally don't feel they came down on one side or the other in their stories but they allowed you to think.
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Thomas Woods
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Posted: 15 May 2018 at 9:02pm | IP Logged | 22 post reply

I got into a debate with a guy in the comments section
at the Beat who proclaimed that no one had a problem
with how "Reaganized" Marvel Comics were in the 80's.
He basically said that JB, Stern, and Simonson were
writing comics from a right wing point of view! I
personally don't feel they came down on one side or
the other in their stories but they allowed you to
think.

---

Comics seemed pretty neutral to me back then, but I
was a young punk. I think as the years have gone by,
media has fanned the flames of division to the
extreme.

I guess the biggest thing, that is being frowned at
now, is women were drawn super hot. I don't think that
was a right wing thing back then, but it seems to be
now.

Edited by Thomas Woods on 15 May 2018 at 9:06pm
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 4:38am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

Comics work best when the stories are neutral (and the writer's "voice" as well.)

CHARACTERS should be left wing, right wing, liberal, conservative, etc. Stories should be situational, but not consistently one aspect or another.

Mr. Byrne is amazing in achieving this. As are others, of course...
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 6:56am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

I guess the biggest thing, that is being frowned at 
now, is women were drawn super hot.

I blame the 90's Image style. Look at how JB, Neal Adams, John Buscema, John Romita Jr., and Walt Simonson among others drew women. Their women were attractive but there was a variety of body types not contorted and exaggerated the way that many drew them in the 90's. One could go in the same direction with males and their muscles. JB's Namor looked like he was a swimmer, the 90's Namor would sink pretty fast!

CHARACTERS should be left wing, right wing, liberal, conservative, etc. Stories should be situational, but not consistently one aspect or another.

Both sides of the political spectrum will claim that Captain America should be either right wing or left wing. I feel he represents everyone, wearing the flag doesn't mean that he has to be overly political. There can be political stories told (and have been told) but the motivations of a character should never be dictated by the writer's personal philosophy. Unfortunately, today's "pro" does that a lot.
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 16 May 2018 at 7:14am | IP Logged | 25 post reply

Cap is a product of the New Deal era. He's a "take care of the common man" type. That's just who he is. Pushing him further left than that would be out of character, but so would turning him into "privatize everything in existence" conservative.

If you take Green Arrow's left-wing views (or at least verbiage) away from him you end up with a pretty boring character.
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