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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 1
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After the election of Trump voices across the political spectrum decided restraint was no longer necessary. Marvel joined in the fray with overtly liberal stories, as is their creative right to do so. Conservative readers as well as those who just didn't like clumsy political commentary added to their already crappy Marvel comics stopped reading, as is their right as well.
But comics is too small and vulnerable a market to withstand any more shrinkage of readership. The poor sales of this year and rumors of many store closings may have to do with this.
Is this the final, final nail in the coffin for the comics industry. I hope not.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 26 April 2018 at 5:52pm
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 26 April 2018 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 2
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'Bye, conservative readers. Don't let the door hit your flabby white asses on the way out.
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Shawn Kane Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 3239
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Posted: 27 April 2018 at 5:03am | IP Logged | 3
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Not sure what the difference is between a conservative reader and a liberal reader but smartly written social commentary that makes you think is a good thing. I remember letter columns over the years where there was debate that carried over into multiple issues that were, at times, more thought provoking than what was happening in the comics. Today's version of "You don't think my way so it's not for you" (from both sides) eliminates half of your audience.
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Thomas Woods Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1356
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Posted: 27 April 2018 at 6:48am | IP Logged | 4
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Hasn't Marvel going too political hurt their sales?
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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Posted: 27 April 2018 at 9:27am | IP Logged | 5
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Bye, conservative readers. Don't let the door hit your flabby white asses on the way out. ---------- Brian, come on. Comments like that are what fuel the far right to do exactly what they're doing. Being conservative does not automatically mean you identify with the Pat Robertson Christian Far Right or the militant white supremacist. Do all liberals identify with the Social Justice Warrior movement? ===========
Hasn't Marvel going too political hurt their sales? ============ Yes and no. What the Alt-Right sites are claiming is that the SJW movement hijacked Marvel, eliminated all of their major, straight, white, male characters and replaced them with something that was more acceptable to their agenda. The digs at Trump are just a bonus.
Well, the foundation of that argument has a little weight to it. Who did they replace: Steve Rogers for Sam Wilson Clint Barton for Kate Bishop Bruce Banner for Amadeus Cho Thor Odinson for Jane Foster Tony Stark for Riri Williams.
Most people, me included, would love to see these characters take on their own mantle and become their own heroes, adding to what already exists. Marvel didn't do that. They replaced existing characters instead. So, sales declined and a few editiors and writers ceased to be employed by the company, including the Editor -In- Chief.
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Robert Bradley Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006 Location: United States Posts: 4824
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Posted: 27 April 2018 at 10:13am | IP Logged | 6
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Steve Rogers for Sam Wilson Clint Barton for Kate Bishop Bruce Banner for Amadeus Cho Thor Odinson for Jane Foster Tony Stark for Riri Williams.
* * * * * * *
In addition we have -
Steve Strange replaced as Sorcerer Supreme by Brother Voodoo Miles Morales sharing the Spider-Man name with Peter Parker Iceman revealed as gay 50+ years after his introduction The shelving of the Fantastic Four Nadia Van Dyne sharing the Wasp name with Janet Van Dyne Sam Alexander replacing Rich Rider as Nova Laura Kinney replaced Logan as Wolverine A group of time-displaced young X-Men brought into the present time Moon Girl replaced Moon Boy as partner to Devil Dinosaur Raz Malhotra replaced Henry Pym as Giant-Man
While a few of these might have been very interesting (such as Brother Voodoo/Doctor Strange), much of it seems to smack of pandering in an attempt to draw a younger audience, and come across as derivative and uninspired (although some like Ms. Marvel and Moon Girl have enjoyed some success selling as trades). Picking up an unused identity (like Scott Lang, Carol Danvers or Bill Foster) is one thing, replacing a popular character with a different version in order to benefit from their popularity is another.
All-in-all it comes across as a clumsy attempt by Marvel to become more diverse, although it only ended up polarizing many long-time fans in exchange for a few minor successes.
Marvel has plenty of minority characters (the Black Panther, the Falcon, Luke Cage, Blade, the Daughters of the Dragon, Shang-Chi, Storm, Monica Rambeau, etc.) of varying popularity that need to be used more frequently. And their LGBT characters need to be emphasized in ways other than just for their sexual identity.
Edited by Robert Bradley on 28 April 2018 at 9:01am
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Brian Hague Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 November 2006 Posts: 8515
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Posted: 27 April 2018 at 2:33pm | IP Logged | 7
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Stephen Churay wrote: "Brian, come on. Comments like that are what fuel the far right to do exactly what they're doing."
Really, does no one have to take responsibility for their actions anymore? Is it always someone else's fault that people do what they do?
Besides, the readers being lost had their day back when there were six Punisher appearances every month, Lobo, Guy Gardner, Deathstroke, and Vigilante books by the truckload, and guns were the solution to everything. They really weren't happy here anymore anyway.
It was never the diversity characters themselves that laid sales low. It was the idea that Marvel threw aside the tried and true, proven sales chart climbers to showcase the newbies at the expense of everything else. This bred resentment towards a fun new group of characters and allowed for easy "talking points" commentaries on how "diversity fails."
Marvel's been pulling the switcheroo sales ploy for decades now, with characters like War Machine, Thunderstrike, USAgent, the criminal Ant-Man, the Superior Spider-Man, et al. Books like "Civil War" taught them that readers no longer cared about consistent characterization or right and wrong. They felt emboldened to launch a Shooter-style "New Universe" inside the MU itself and sideline the characters upon which their company and its good will with the readers was built.
It's not that the replacements were diverse necessarily. It was that Marvel left the readers no choice but to accept them as the new status quo or leave. This isn't a failure of multi-racial casting so much as it is a condemnation of sweeping, incautious sea changes editorial had no real reason to expect readers to accept, especially at a time when the originals were enjoyed unprecedented success in theaters.
I would hope that if Marvel made the same decisions but cast the replacements out of a Republican Congressional Interns photo, the results would not be substantially different.
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Adam Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017 Posts: 1717
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Posted: 27 April 2018 at 2:41pm | IP Logged | 8
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Robert's right.
DC didn't really do what Marvel did. There are a couple more Earth-born Green Lanterns now -- one Latina, one Arab-American -- but they didn't replace Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner or Guy Gardner or John Stewart, all of whom are still in the GL Corps.
Cyborg has been in the Justice League for a while now, though it hasn't made him more popular, and I'd prefer him back in the Titans.
New Super-Man and the Justice League of China are, well, Chinese, and in China, so again, not replacements for anyone.
Ryan Choi has replaced Ray Palmer as the Atom, though only on the JLA. Last I knew Palmer was busy in the Microverse. My hope is that eventually they'll both co-star in a comic called THE ATOMS. (Why not?)
The new Aqualad is gay, the new Kid Flash is biracial (he "reads" as Black), Kate Kane/Batwoman is lesbian (which was explicit from the beginning), the newest Blue Beetle is Latino. But, to quote Robert, these involved picking up an unused identity.
(I know Bart Allen is coming back soon, but it'll be as Impulse, not Kid Flash.)
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17667
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Posted: 27 April 2018 at 3:29pm | IP Logged | 9
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Cyborg has been in the Justice League for a while now, though it hasn't made him more popular, and I'd prefer him back in the Titans.
—-
Agreed! That move still doesn’t feel right to me! If TPTB felt they had to add a male character of that hue, Amazing Man or Black Lightning would have been better choices.
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Thomas Woods Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1356
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Posted: 27 April 2018 at 6:03pm | IP Logged | 10
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Iceman revealed as gay 50+ years after his introduction
--- The thing that irks me about this is that, if they want to do something like this, have the balls to do it to a major character instead of a side liner.
Even though Ice Man is not as popular as Spider Man, he still has his fans and they did not consider those fans when making that change.
Even though it was an alternate universe, I was annoyed that they did that to Colossus in the Ultimate X-Men, I thought, why not go all out and make Wolverine gay? And that is the other half that irks me, they are too scared to do it to a major character cause they know it would hurt sales.
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Shane Matlock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 August 2012 Location: United States Posts: 1760
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Posted: 27 April 2018 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 11
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I don't think there's anything wrong having political allegories in a story as long as it's not detrimental to the story and you still tell a good story. But when the whole story becomes a vehicle for your political viewpoint to the point that it comes off as a preachy monologue, even if it's one I agree with, I'd rather not read it.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14812
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Posted: 28 April 2018 at 5:41am | IP Logged | 12
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It was never the diversity characters themselves that laid sales low. It was the idea that Marvel threw aside the tried and true, proven sales chart climbers to showcase the newbies at the expense of everything else. This bred resentment towards a fun new group of characters and allowed for easy "talking points" commentaries on how "diversity fails."
——-
Yup!
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