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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 10:51am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I must remain off social media for the day. People are mentioning butter knives and screwdrivers.

They can't be that dense. A lobotomized amoeba couldn't be that dense. 

A screwdriver? Come on! If a guy with a screwdriver enters a cinema, pub or school, I definitely think that, if things turn out right, there's a 100% chance of zero fatalities. Injuries? Yes. Or not. Trust me, if the right person notices - never a guarantee, of course - that person with the screwdriver can be disarmed, especially those, like myself, who are trained in something (I say that not to boast, just to show that there are techniques).

But the gun will, and always seems to, result in not only injuries, but fatalities.

There has to be a compromise. If they can't ban the sale of guns, then at least only allow pistols or something. I know not the terminology of other guns, but surely assault rifles/machine guns/similar weaponry should only be used in a military context?

Does that mean criminals won't get hold of them? No. And hopefully anti-gun units in law enforcement can deal with that, but the "only bad guys will have guns" argument long ago irked me. I mean, what reason can people have to be buying hi-tech weaponry?

Pistols? Maybe, just maybe for protection (in a dangerous area), although I am not so sure of that. But machine guns and assault rifles? No. I don't see a legitimate reason to own such things. If you're concerned about burglars, then your pistol, if you can get to it, should be effective. But who knows? A burglar won't wait for you to get it from your gun safe.

I get angry when I hear politicians, in addition to offering thoughts and prayers, talking about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Bullshit. And their pro-life bullshit. It's virtue signalling, to be honest (they are modern-day Pharisees, some of them). If they really cared, they'd at least have a debate about this issue. 
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Peter Martin
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 11:22am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Some politicians have said with regard to gun control that it's too early to jump to conclusions, not knowing the full facts.

When it comes to mental health and school safety, though, it's not too early and something will be done about this without knowing the full facts.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 11:27am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Some politicians have said with regard to gun control that it's too early to jump to conclusions, not knowing the full facts.

***

In that case, I presume they have the facts (people who say that claim to know more). So the ball is in their court. Time for them to offer solutions, not to simply dismiss others for "politicizing' a tragedy.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 12:03pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Thoughts and prayers. Y'know, I believe in compassion and kindness... but these have to be the START, not the END, of actions taken.

And by far, the WORST thing about this latest school shooting is that they are becoming so horribly, catastrophically common that we are becoming inured to them! WE'RE GETTING USED TO THEM! When we should, every one of us, be on the phone or email or twitter to our congressional representatives and screaming for reform, too many are just thinking, "Gee, that's awful. I hope they're okay. Oh, the Cavs are playing tonight..."

It's an epidemic. A critical disease in this country. In northeast Ohio, we've heard plenty about the latest flu epidemic and how there are vaccines, and we hear it every night for days at a time. But we hear about "Breaking News!" when there's a shooting... for one night... and by the 11:00 news, it might even be glossed over. AND THAT'S ALL. Why isn't every single news outlet releasing a daily editorial about this disaster?

If it were happening to a child or grandchild of Trump's, or Ryan's, or McConell's, or any leading Republican, you KNOW that something would be done. But it's not directly affecting anyone in Congress - it doesn't intrude into their small sphere of reality - so once again, no action is necessary, it's not yet time to talk about it... and they're sending thoughts and prayers.

Robbie, there is PLENTY to do about this. The real question is, Who will do something about it? And to date, that answer is obviously, nobody. My friend, I feel your pain and rage and frustration, because they course through my veins too. And then it's aggravated by idiots who spout comments with no idea what they're saying. Screwdrivers. Knives. Why not mention chainsaws as long as they're on the topic.

Vinny, I'm glad your niece is safe. I hope she remains that way for the rest of her school career... well, and her all her life. Same for all of us.

I still do not believe that a complete gun ban is the best solution to this situation. But it works in other countries, and SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE. Wouldn't it be nice if we had such a ban, and then we would discuss what exceptions to THAT law should be permitted?
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Someone even brought up that man who shot people in Norway (2011). Tragic. Every life lost is tragic. But I don't recall any mass shootings in Norway before or since. That doesn't lessen the tragedy of that 2011 shooting, but it's false equivalence. 

And you get idiots saying, "Okay, let's ban the iron rod and kitchen utensils." There's no equivalence there, either.

A woman I worked with years ago told me her boyfriend chased her down the road with a machete. He was arrested. I'm glad she could live to tell me about it. But she got away. Had he owned a firearm, she'd have likely been dead.
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

False equivalency is the go-to move for gun humpers. Cars! Baseball bats! Bathtubs!

Missing in their "logic" is the intent of the manufacturer.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

That's true. Someone on TV described a car as a "two-thousand pound projectile". Yes, it is. And road deaths are tragic. But the purpose is to get from A to B. 

I just wish the debate could be sensible, Mr Byrne. 

EDIT: Is 21 the legal age for buying alcohol in the US? I always felt that was odd (why not 18 or 20? Does one become super-mature at 21?). I don't get how you can be disallowed from buying a can of beer or bottle of wine, but could go down the road to the gun store.


Edited by Robbie Parry on 15 February 2018 at 12:29pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I posted way back before there was any info about any death, they were saying injured at that point and that the shooter seemed to be unaccounted for. It's been particularly horrific.

If Sandy Hook didn't change the minds of the seemingly most powerful I can't imagine what would. I even ran across some huge conspiracy business about it on line once that it basically never happened, sheesh!

Something that might get through... How is that working for you? Substitute us  perhaps. So, the Brady bill has expired, gun 'shows' have had exemptions, etc. etc., so, how is that working for you? Maybe you can use this with some and not try to answer it for them at all, help prompt people to think and question themselves.

I think Switzerland and Japan are two 'examples' that really are not at all applicable. I see one extreme uses the former to say how you can have a wonderful nation with practically everyone having access to firearms, and the latter is used to portray a place with virtually nil weapons as paradisaical somehow.

Anyway, money is the root of this 'evil', certainly in part. In Canada we have in my opinion better campaign finance laws and transparency, and much more seriously regarded conflict of interest regulations. The U.S. has some things I think are better in their system, things that had worked for over 200 years in fact. You have (both parties are guilty here) unfortunately allowed many safety regulations and anti-corruption regulations to be tossed out, dismantled, weakened, often with simplistic red-tape job killer labels that are really a smoke screen for a vested interest (that money thing again).

By the way, this is the only forum I visit that has allowed this topic at all, the rest have learned I guess you might say to just squash any conversation about anything remotely 'controversial'. I see that as a huge change from the U.S. I knew in the past. A conversation does require civility; this being a hallmark of civilisation. I really hope there can somehow be more civil conversations in the future. I used to see one 'side' as the name-calling side but I have started seeing that I was wrong, I have seen it and censoring actions and ear blocking like one of those no evil chimps from the other extreme too. You cannot get anywhere that way regardless of that being fair or whatever, it just is. Weimar Germany had people devolved to extremist slanted newspapers full of outrage manufacturing and half-truths... are websites any different?

Thank you for allowing me, a misfit probably in some parts, a space here. We are all guests or hosts in a way, and that is another bedrock of civilization perhaps. Native American cultures were often heavy on such formalities.

Yoda was wrong... trying is everything... but he was just a muppet, who listens to those anyway.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 15 February 2018 at 12:30pm
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

 Marcio Ferreira wrote:
I want to understand what kind of mental process causes people to believe that criminals will comply with laws.

By your logic, why do we have laws against anything?  Why do we outlaw methamphetamines?  Why do we outlaw murder?  Criminals are not going to obey the law.  I guess there's no point in making anything illegal.

The obvious, simple answer is that making something illegal makes it more difficult to do, and deters some people from doing it because of fear of consequences.  Making meth illegal makes it more difficult to obtain.  Making murder illegal deters some people from committing murder.  It doesn't eliminate all meth use, and it doesn't stop all murders, but it decreases both.  Making semi-automatic weapons illegal would make them more difficult to obtain, which would mean they would be used less in criminal acts.  It's really quite simple. 
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Brian Floyd
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Joined: 07 July 2006
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The government should stop saying they don't negotiate with terrorists, when they're in the back pocket of the NRA. 


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Eric Ladd
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Joined: 16 August 2004
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Posts: 4506
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Here is some analysis regarding the number of guns available in the US and the frequency of mass shootings.

NY Times: What Explains U.S. Mass Shootings?
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132134
Posted: 15 February 2018 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

...the Brady Bill has expired...

•••

Do we need anything more than this to tell us how screwed up we are as a Nation. Congress is like the mayor in JAWS. "Only for twenty-four hours!"

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