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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 11 February 2018 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Thanks for sharing, but not that one.

I remember some words. Hulk said something like, "Hulk knows he is a freak, knows he is not beauty..."
++++++++

I believe youíre thinking of INCREDIBLE HULK # 189, where the Hulk befriends a blind girl, then leaves her at the end, musing that she sees him as a man, but heís really only a monster.
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Doug Centers
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Posted: 11 February 2018 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Yeah, Greg that was a good one. It was the second Hulk book I had bought.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 11 February 2018 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Yeah, that was probably the one! Thanks. :)
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 11 February 2018 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

"None Are So Blind!" by Len Wein. One of my favorite Hulk stories. It just has one problem: it takes place in Siberia.

How does the Hulk know Russian? Maybe Bruce Banner knows Russian? Maybe he was speaking "caveman Russian" in that story, like he speaks "caveman English" most of the time?

Пустой человек! Халк будет разбит !!
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 12 February 2018 at 12:44am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

 Robbie Parry wrote:
Thanks for sharing, but not that one.

I remember some words. Hulk said something like, "Hulk knows he is a freak, knows he is not beauty..." 


The story you're thinking of is "Thunder of Dawn" from The Hulk! magazine issue 10 (the first full-color issue, and the first issue without the "Rampaging" descriptor).  By Doug Moench and Ron Wilson.  That story brought a tear to my eye the first time I read it too.  Take a look at the original art I found online... you remembered the dialogue from panel four of the last page perfectly:




Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 12 February 2018 at 12:46am
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 12 February 2018 at 12:52am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 Adam Schulman wrote:
"None Are So Blind!" by Len Wein. One of my favorite Hulk stories. It just has one problem: it takes place in Siberia.

How does the Hulk know Russian? Maybe Bruce Banner knows Russian?


That is exactly the explanation that is given on the letters page of issue #191 (when the question was raised in a letter from future Marvel staffer Peter Sanderson).  Banner knows Russian, so Hulk knows Russian too, and he used it unconsciously when he was spoken to in that language.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 12 February 2018 at 12:56am
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Jason Scott
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Posted: 12 February 2018 at 2:51am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Those Hulk issues are indeed really sad, and show the lonely pathos of the character well.

Gwen Stacey will always strike a chord(!) because of how cruel it was. Having Peter seemingly accidentally kill her when trying to save her. That's harsh all right. And would forever haunt you.
(Let's not mention the abomination of Sins Past.)

Personally I always liked Spider-man and Black Cat. It was fun having Peter in a relationship where he really could loosen up. And I absolutely hate that Marvel's current higher ups seemingly ordered the character assassination of turning her into an out and out villain. The timing of it seemed suspicious too. Like Felicia turns up in Amazing Spider-man 2, as a not too unsympathetic character, and is then instantly turned into a murderess in the books. As if they wanted to preemptively sabotage any chance Sony had of launching her as a spin off heroine. It'll be interesting to hear Dan Slott's account of that once enough time has past after he leaves.

Similarly I always liked Captain America (Steve Rogers) and Diamondback (Rachel Leighton,) as it seemed to bring out both a lighter side of Cap, together with making Rachel really question her criminal past and try to change for the better. It was genuine growth from a romantic relationship. But of course later writers screwed it up, so we can have another variant on the eternally boring Sharon Carter partnership. (Sigh!)

I mean what is the John Greenleaf Whittier quote again?..."For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these, 'What might have been..."
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Matthew Wilkie
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Posted: 12 February 2018 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I had enjoyed the Sider-Man / Black Cat romance which I followed in UK reprints and remember being somewhat forlorn when Black Cat's new power (gained from the Kingpin?) prevented her from being close to anyone for too long as it made them unlucky.  
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 12 February 2018 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Gwen's death, as powerful as it was, was cheapened by both Norman Osborn turning up alive AND the "Sins Past" storyline. The latter should either be permanently ignored, or eventually revealed as a complex ruse by Norman. ("Sins Past" required retconning to even be possible, as originally Gwen was only in Europe for a few weeks.).

+++++++++

This is the story which made me quit modern comics. I found it so distasteful and so wrongheaded that I realized that any semblance of respect for what had come before was draining out of the industry at an alarming rate. Of course, Spider-Man had been broken long before ďSins PastĒ, but this was my point of no return, as a reader. I havenít looked back, and Iím happier for it.

I love Conwayís original Clone Saga from 1975, and that absolutely should have been the final word on Gwen Stacy, aside from the occasional flashback or passing reference. And, bringing Osborn back completely undercuts the themes of the story in which he and Gwen both died. Again, Roger Stern absolutely had the right idea by bringing back and modernizing the whole Green Goblin schtick in the form of the Hobgoblin, but leaving Norman dead, and Harry married and happy.

++++++++++++++++
Before "Sins Past", Gwen was seen as an innocent victim. If the events in "Sins Past" really transpired, it would be more of a "now I'm glad the bitch is dead" situation than anything.

Brand New Day/One More Day was the genesis of me stopping reading comics on a regular basis. I quit buying as many titles as I used to a few months later. But I never bought a single issue of a Spider-Man title (Issues with Spider-Man in it, such as an issue of AVENGERS, yes, but no Spider-Man books) after that crap. I only know about "Sins Past" due to reading a few synopses of it, plus a blog someone posted here once.

If I hadn't stopped back when I did, then surely the Hydra Cap arc would have done the job. 


Edited by Brian Floyd on 12 February 2018 at 8:14pm
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

This thread has begun discussing the break-ups our own love affairs with the comics industry. :-)

I'd forgotten that so many heroes had relationships with villainesses ("villainessi?") Spider-Man & the Black Cat. Cap & Diamondback. Iron Man & Madame Masque (my personal favorite of the Marvel romance-foes.) Batman & Catwoman, of course, but also Talia. And of course, he would scratch the itch to lock lips with Poison Ivy every now and then... Superman was generally too smart for such things, except with the Starry-Eyed Siren From Space and later, Maxima. Green Lantern's ladylove was also the Star Sapphire. The Black Canary started out as an apparent thief that Johnny Thunder was smitten by. Nearly every female criminal mastermind he fought had a thing for the Spirit...

Kind of puts a new spin to the term "Playa On the Other Side..." :-)


Edited by Brian Hague on 13 February 2018 at 6:24pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

I only know about "Sins Past" due to reading a few synopses of it, plus a blog someone posted here once.
+++++++++++++

You mean my own epic blog rant against that story? Writing that was very cathartic, at the time.
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Brian O'Neill
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

OK, I just read HULK # 189...wow. A mix of typical 'Hulk vs weird villain' comic book plaot and 'TV Hulk' scenario...in an unsual setting. Nice change of pace.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 13 February 2018 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Greg, was this the blog post you're referring to?


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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 12:17am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Absolutely. Iíd go about writing it differently, today, but Iím still proud of all the research I did to fact-check everything that wretched story got wrong.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 2:57am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

*exasperated sigh*

----

The single redeeming thing* about JMS' run on Spider-Man is that it makes all other retcons and storylines tolerable by comparison. "Did Spider-Man find out that he's one of a long line of Spider-Totems, eat anyone's eyeball, team up with Aunt May and MJ wearing old Iron Man Armor to break into Latveria and go joyriding in Doctor Doom's time machine, or find out that his ex-girlfriend cheated on him with Norman Osborn and has an age-accelerated lookalike daughter? No? Then we're good."

*OK, two redeeming things. I admit to loving those variant Mike Weiringo covers for The Other. Only reason I own those issues.


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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

The sad thing is that JMSí arrival on the book (with glorious Romita JR. art!) was heralded as some kind of return to form, and so jumped on the hype train I again began buying ASM regularly with his first issue, and stuck with it through ďSins PastĒ. Big mistake.

Iím still convinced that anything remotely resembling the real Spider-Man ended around 1992 or so. Once the robot parents entered the scene, things started going downhill, and have never turned back. There have been occasional good stories and creative runs, but the character was so damaged and burdened by the Clone Saga that every subsequent attempt to get back to form has been a bust.

And now, Peterís some kind of Iron Man wannabe with his own tech company? Uhhh...yeah. Okay. Whatever.
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Brian Floyd
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

I think there had to be some sort of change with Spider-Man, because newspapers are becoming obsolete (will the Daily Bugle end up being digital only?). But giving Peter his own company was NOT the way to go at all.

And yes, Greg, that was the blog post I was referring to. 


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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 1:14pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

The characters have changed from being what kids want to be, to being what adults want to be.
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Rebecca Jansen
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Posted: 14 February 2018 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

On this Valentine's Day I think of the seemingly doomed Scott Summers and Jean Grey circa X-Men #137. It was genuinely touching then when I was 12 and now re-reading as an adult maybe more (I lost a fiancee to cancer a dozen years ago now). For a moment it was, then she went all Dark Phoenix again and Cyclops had to try to save 'all creation' from her.

"The characters have changed from being what kids want to be, to being what adults want to be."

I remember some underground cartoonists saying something of the same thing circa the mid '80s! I think as long as you imagine a (hopefully) smart kid might be reading you will create with honesty, respect and humanity, but a lot of fans turned pro seem to come from a fulfilling their fantasy type of situation.
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Adam Schulman
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply

And now, Peterís some kind of Iron Man wannabe with his own tech company? Uhhh...yeah. Okay. Whatever.

***

All I know is that it didn't last very long at all. Peter's back at the Bugle.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 15 February 2018 at 5:32pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

And now, Peterís some kind of Iron Man wannabe with his own tech company? Uhhh...yeah. Okay. Whatever.

***

All I know is that it didn't last very long at all. Peter's back at the Bugle.

----

Peter is a science editor at the Bugle after sacrificing his company to prevent HYDRA from getting a hold of his tech.
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Brian Hague
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Posted: 16 February 2018 at 12:01am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Yes, somehow Doc Ock had the ability to control all of the Parker Industries tech, which I think means... that he can take over Aunt May's artificial hip and Flash Thompson's legs... "The NEW Doctor Octopus! He doesn't just control his artificial limbs... Now he controls yours as well!"

And Science Editor at the Bugle? That's the best a CEO of an industrialized self-start-up with divisions in multiple countries can land? This IS a tough economy...

This stuff is just going to be lame forever now, isn't it? 

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