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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4789
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 10:01am | IP Logged | 1
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It has often been noted that there are no unworkable heroes... they just need the right treatment. I'm minded of some characters who were thought laughable until they got the correct creators... Daredevil, the Atom, Aquaman, Swamp Thing, Wonder Woman*, the Punisher, Ghost Rider, Iron Fist, the Hulk, etc.
Are there any who can't be salvaged? Or who would need stories that were so contrived that it would be painful reading such? Or would have to be radically transformed to be popular?
For instance, to my mind, Man-Thing just doesn't work. The main character is mindless, so any story has to be about him reacting to situations around him. There's a setup for a lot of stories, yes... but would they actually require Man-Thing to be in them to work?
I know that the Hulk fell into that slot a few times. Until they gave him some intelligence and awareness, it seemed that the only story was someone out to get the Hulk - the military, super villains, or whomever else. And I know that Ted Sallis' intelligence could be brought to the fore, and great stories might come from that... but again, that's a radical change to the character.
Is there anyone you can think of that doesn't quite work?
*I know that Wonder Woman has been continuously published since 1940, but I seem to recall that, save for needing to publish to maintain the copyright, DC would have cancelled her books more than once.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132240
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 10:48am | IP Logged | 2
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It was Neal Adams who said there are no bad characters, only bad writers. Sadly, in the past couple of decades (more>) those bad writers have made such a hash of so many characters it is difficult to imagine any of them to be salvageable -- especially with an audience that contains so many who insist that everything is sacrosanct.*_______________ * Except what they don't like -- but good luck trying to get a consensus there!
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7480
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 11:20am | IP Logged | 3
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I wonder when a character reaches the point of being irretrievable. Years of failed relaunches and attempts to "freshen up" the character can only make them LESS worthwhile.
I don't know if there are any characters who couldn't be redeemed by the right creative team, but that's the big X factor here--the *right* team.
By the same token, it is damned easy to wreck a character by giving a book to hacks who happen to be buddies with the right editor.
If you're going to redeem a character or team, though, maybe employ the strategy Marvel is doing with the FF. Make them disappear for a while. Build up reader interest organically, then return them when you feel the time is right.
That said, don't then screw it up. It is vastly easier to squander reader interest than to earn it.
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Vinny Valenti Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8030
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 4
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Cyclops shacking up with the White Queen and killing Professor Xavier pretty much puts him in the "unsalvageable" column.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132240
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | 5
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Time for the Shaper of Worlds!
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16428
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 6
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In fiction, any character can be salvaged. The means to do so can be dodgy at times, but it can be done.
As for a character like Man-Thing, heck, look at how many Godzilla movies have been made. Being a non-speaking character doesn't make the character unsalvagable.
Edited by Matt Hawes on 05 January 2018 at 12:38pm
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Bill Guerra Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2012 Location: United States Posts: 1065
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 7
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The first one that came to mind for me was Cyclops. He's been through so much outright character assassination that it's ridiculous. And sad.
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Dave Phelps Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4178
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 8
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I guess the question I would have is what do you consider to be "unsalvageable"? There are certainly characters who are more commercial than others but that doesn't necessarily make the "lesser ones" bad. I don't think it's impossible to tell good stories about any character. It's just that some are harder than others.
It's a weird thing about comics where if a character only has, say, a dozen or so good stories told about them, they're a footnote at best. Meanwhile there are lists galore of "classic characters in literature" who only had one or two stories apiece. Doesn't seem fair. :-)
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Phillip L Lightfoot Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 February 2015 Location: United States Posts: 109
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | 9
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Gerber, Mayerik, Ploog, and Mooney did Man-Thing just fine. She-Hulk was considered an idiot character until Roger Stern, and JB found a better take. Heck, JB even made US-1 interesting, at least for a few pages.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 132240
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 1:54pm | IP Logged | 10
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I love "dopey" characters. Remember, Chris thought the Sentinels were "lame," and I said "that's because you write them that way!" Did my own spin, and "Days of Future Past" was the result.
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4067
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 1:57pm | IP Logged | 11
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The best Man-Thing stories were written by Steve Gerber, who had a clear vision for the character. As long as he's not a superhero and there's intriguing action happening around him, he works as a character. Some of Will Eisner's most memorable Spirit stories featured The Spirit as a supporting character, or relegated him to a cameo appearance in his own comic.
There are some characters I'd argue aren't worth the effort of dusting off and trying to write a great story about, but I wouldn't say that makes any of them impossible.
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Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12186
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Posted: 05 January 2018 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 12
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I will defer to other people's knowledge of characters - I certainly don't have the historical knowledge - but Eric named the likes of Daredevil, Punisher and Ghost Rider as being laughable early on in their run.
What happened exactly?
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