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Brian Skelley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 February 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 231
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| Posted: 10 November 2017 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 1
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Robbie Parry wrote:
| Who mentioned the Wild West? Or used it as a comparison? |
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I mentioned it. It was a comparison to point out that we aren't in a time where people can use whatever firearms they want if they had access to it. During the expansion period of the west before the Government officially expanded itself most places were whatever the local area agreed to. In many cases it was whatever you could lug around. Modern media (being post 70s.. though to be fair it's been going on much longer than that I just started paying attention due to a mother who majored in US history, the west being her focus of study) has made the idea seem that you could own and do whatever you wanted until the Government expanded it's claims. I should point out that this wasn't a bad thing, I'm not one of those anti-Government people that thinks they should butt out. Regardless...
Robbie Parry wrote:
| No-one can know for sure, but I wonder, is a romantic view of the "Wild West" (I confess, I've mistakenly referred to it as a single entity) another reason why Americans are fixated on guns. |
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This country had a love of guns way before the West was settled. We were a country that was birthed in the violence of war and those guns helped even the odds greatly. If America had to fight like the Romans did, there's no way it would have won. The US troops were a rag tag bunch to start with, the idea of them doing well against troops trained like the Brits wouldn't have gone so well.
It's one of the reasons it's on the list of things that the founders thought were so important for us to live by.. so important they made it number two on the list! That's one of the biggest reasons it's hard to get them outright banned. It'd take a overhaul of it, and I'm not sure how possible that'll be. Even large number of anti-gun people think the doc is perfect and should be left alone. At best it would take way more than most people are willing to do.. see my other post about how little people can be bothered to call their Senators. My bet is no one will this week except those that want the guns left alone.
Robbie Parry wrote:
| The pro-gun crowd seem to think "good guy with a gun" has a clear shot every time. |
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Very much not true. In fact there are whole classes devoted towards training to shoot when the target isn't clear. There are numerous targets that have "no shoots" in front of shoot targets. It's what a lot of Police train towards and that same training trickles down to the civilians that don't want to make a mistake (though it happens, just because you spend a lifetime shooting doesn't mean you won't miss) if they're in that position. If anything it's all about minimizing the risks, not removing them. In the legal class I was part of (which I believe should be required if you're going to own a gun) they spoke a lot of how complicated any shooting is in regards to the law.
John Byrne wrote:
| A crack shot who, for instance, could have "returned fire" on the church shooter, and hit only his target, and none of the panicked parishioners between the "good" shooter and the bad one. They also seem to assume gun ownership comes with some degree of time travel, as claims ignore the amount of time for the "good" shooter to get his gun(s) out, while the assailant was still shooting. |
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With the exception of the time travel part, that's what happened in the Texas church shooting. The neighbor got his AR and returned fire on the church shooter hitting him and causing him to flee. He and another then chased the church shooter in a truck (which is so bizarre, but not sure it was a bad thing) until the church shooter lost control. They held him there until the police arrived. I've yet to see anyone say that if the neighbor hadn't done gotten involved with his gun there wouldn't have been a much larger body count.
This isn't to say this was a perfect "here's what'll always happen" thing. It's just something that worked out better than if the neighbor didn't have both a gun and training as the police were a ways away and who knows how many more people would have died without that neighbor.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 10 November 2017 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | 2
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This isn't to say this was a perfect "here's what'll always happen" thing. It's just something that worked out better than if the neighbor didn't have both a gun and training as the police were a ways away and who knows how many more people would have died without that neighbor. ••• Thank you for that succinct encapsulation of why this Nation is FUCT: the very notion that (possibly) fewer dead people is an ACCEPTABLE condition.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
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| Posted: 10 November 2017 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | 3
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In various nations, I've read accounts of people wielding knives, swords, etc. And there were NO fatalities. Injuries, yes, but not fatalities.
With a gun, in a nation where guns are freely sold, at least one civilian death is inevitable (usually more); but there have been occasions where fatalities have been avoided if someone has attempted to use a knife, sword, bat, etc.
That doesn't mean NO-ONE has ever been killed by such things, merely that if a guy walked into a UK classroom with a knife, there is a definite chance of fatalities being avoided; with a gun, at least one, usually more, deaths are inevitable.
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4721
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| Posted: 10 November 2017 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 4
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Even large number of anti-gun people think the doc is perfect and should be left alone. At best it would take way more than most people are willing to do.. see my other post about how little people can be bothered to call their Senators. My bet is no one will this week except those that want the guns left alone.
•••••••••
The media's manipulation of the news cycle contributes to this... but I'm hopeful that people are finally fed up with our government's inability to push better gun reform which includes mental health issues. This should be the top priority headed into the midterm elections (let's see how that turns out!)... hold every politician accountable for their alliance with the NRA and gun manufacturers.
-C!
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 10 November 2017 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | 5
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I was in no way trying to romanticize hand to hand weapons over ranged weapons... merely pointing out that it takes some skill to use properly, and while anyone can be nuts, a gun is so much simpler to obtain and use that one needs literally no discipline to use one. I greatly doubt that someone goes to one judo or MMA class and is instantly a killing machine; similarly, I believe that one fencing class does not turn a person into D'artagnan.
As for the difference between standard vs automatic weapons... a gun is still used only to kill. And the government may track sales of automatic weapons... but it doesn't seem to do much good.
Of course, Trump's easing up on the restrictions of gun sales to those mental defectives didn't help anything. But - as is so horrifically obvious - guns are still the weapon of choice for quick and easy killing.
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4721
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| Posted: 14 November 2017 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | 6
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This is becoming routine, isn't it?
*sigh*
-C!
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Philippe Negrin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 August 2007
Location: France
Posts: 2644
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| Posted: 15 November 2017 at 2:44am | IP Logged | 7
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How many examples are there in American history of an armed isolated gun owner succesfully preventing a shooting ?
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4721
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| Posted: 07 December 2017 at 3:48pm | IP Logged | 8
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Bumping this thread because....
So much for states' rights, huh? Can Congress invalidate a state's properly implemented and constitutional law... just because??
-C!
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Don Zomberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 November 2005
Posts: 2355
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| Posted: 08 December 2017 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 9
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Conservatives believe in local control, except when they don't.
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Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8355
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| Posted: 08 December 2017 at 10:04pm | IP Logged | 10
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There's never going to be any chance of reasonable gun control as long as the NRA is around.
They even want to make silencers legal, on the basis of preventing hearing loss.
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