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Brian Skelley
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Posted: 09 November 2017 at 10:41pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

 Robbie Parry wrote:
Where do we draw the line on weaponry?


There are tons of lines drawn and enforced when it comes to firearms. It's far from the wild west where everyone can have whatever they want that seems to continue to be portrayed in these kinds of threads. There are tons of laws that limit what one can have as a civilian in the US. It's the one thing about gun threads that always blows my mind. People aren't as informed as they pretend to be when it comes to what they want to ban.

 Eric Sofer wrote:
When learning such weaponry, I'm under the impression that a degree of self-control and discipline is also learned.  But any defective can pick up a gun, point it, and pull the trigger; and if it's close to the right direction, they'll do damage. If it's an automatic weapon, it's hard to avoid doing fatal damage.


This is interesting both in that it romanticizes knifes, swords and the like yet also points out what I mean by not knowing much about firearms. It's illegal to own a 'automatic' weapon without an in depth Government check, and the Government keeps tabs on where that 'automatic' weapon goes. More so, it's hard to "avoid doing fatal damage" with a gun regardless of it's fully auto or not. It's a bullet ripping through someone.. it's not like it's a thing where you have hit points like a video game and once you get hit too many times it's over.. As for the "degree of self-control and discipline", your mileage will greatly vary depending on where you go. Most places that I've seen will teach you how to cripple someone for life. Hell, the number one defense gyms are the MMA types and I've yet to see one of those that are like the old Kung Fu movies where they teach you to respect the universe while teaching you how to dislocate someone's shoulder. Also there are more stabbings done because some idiot picked up a knife than your post pretends.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. if the laws are outdated, get them changed. Learn what they are (as most anti-gun people still think you can legally buy fully automatic weapons online and have them delivered to my home) and then get organized. That's what the pro side is doing. They know what they laws are and when any changes to them are being voted upon. They call their reps every day... seriously every single day leading up to the vote. Which do you think gets more attention? The random guy saying to his friends "they should get rid of guns" or the calls from hundreds (literally) daily from the "leave our guns alone" group? Odds are most people will go back to their lives like nothing has happened or throw up their hands declaring the NRA boogeyman is just too powerful because that's much easier than doing something as simple as continuing to call and harass their Senators.


Edited by Brian Skelley on 09 November 2017 at 10:43pm
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 4:53am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Who mentioned the Wild West? Or used it as a comparison?

Historically speaking, and I have facts to back it up in a book, Victorian Britain was far more violent than the Wild West. So I certainly wouldn't use it as a comparison.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 5:45am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

The "Wild West" was not a single, coherent entity. Different towns had different gun laws, many much more strict than what we have today -- and that at a time when people really DID need their guns for protection.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 5:50am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

The "Wild West" was not a single, coherent entity. Different towns had different gun laws, many much more strict than what we have today -- and that at a time when people really DID need their guns for protection.

***

No-one can know for sure, but I wonder, is a romantic view of the "Wild West" (I confess, I've mistakenly referred to it as a single entity) another reason why Americans are fixated on guns. Do they really believe that they can be "sheriffs" in their mind?

So ingrained, it would seem.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 6:04am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Many Americans undoubtedly see themselves as heroic gunslingers. When I see pictures, tho, I most often see heavily armed versions of the Comic Shop Guy.
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 7:12am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

That`s the media for you,the romanticism of the Wild
West is just one aspect.Look at the fools on the road
who,in their heads are driving in their own version of
The Fast and Furious franchise,where nobody ever suffers
internal injuries from high impact collisions,or the A-
Team where the bad guys would spray automatic weapons
and never hit anyone.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Indeed, Bill.

If I had a gun, I'd like to think I could defend against a shooter in, say, a cinema; but the reality is, I couldn't. Not effectively. I'd try, but I might not have a clear shot. I could hit a bystander. So much could go wrong.

The pro-gun crowd seem to think "good guy with a gun" has a clear shot every time.
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Bill Collins
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 8:08am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I watched the latest episode of Criminal Minds during the week,it featured a mass shooting in a workplace,it really made it clear that by the time people react,there are already numerous fatalities and not much chance of identifying the shooter/s and taking them out in the ensuing confusion.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

The anencephalics who claim arming the "good guys" will reduce gun violence seem to operate on the assumption that any such individual is by definition a sharp shooter. A crack shot who, for instance, could have "returned fire" on the church shooter, and hit only his target, and none of the panicked parishioners between the "good" shooter and the bad one. They also seem to assume gun ownership comes with some degree of time travel, as claims ignore the amount of time for the "good" shooter to get his gun(s) out, while the assailant was still shooting.
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Blair Herd
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 10:19am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

In addition when the trained law enforcement officers arrive, with usual rapid response, a single active shooter has now turned into several creating even more chaos.  An extremely volatile and complicated scenario is now further complicated....
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Brian Skelley
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

 Robbie Parry wrote:
Who mentioned the Wild West? Or used it as a comparison?


I mentioned it. It was a comparison to point out that we aren't in a time where people can use whatever firearms they want if they had access to it. During the expansion period of the west before the Government officially expanded itself most places were whatever the local area agreed to. In many cases it was whatever you could lug around. Modern media (being post 70s.. though to be fair it's been going on much longer than that I just started paying attention due to a mother who majored in US history, the west being her focus of study) has made the idea seem that you could own and do whatever you wanted until the Government expanded it's claims. I should point out that this wasn't a bad thing, I'm not one of those anti-Government people that thinks they should butt out. Regardless...

 Robbie Parry wrote:
No-one can know for sure, but I wonder, is a romantic view of the "Wild West" (I confess, I've mistakenly referred to it as a single entity) another reason why Americans are fixated on guns.


This country had a love of guns way before the West was settled. We were a country that was birthed in the violence of war and those guns helped even the odds greatly. If America had to fight like the Romans did, there's no way it would have won. The US troops were a rag tag bunch to start with, the idea of them doing well against troops trained like the Brits wouldn't have gone so well.

 It's one of the reasons it's on the list of things that the founders thought were so important for us to live by.. so important they made it number two on the list! That's one of the biggest reasons it's hard to get them outright banned. It'd take a overhaul of it, and I'm not sure how possible that'll be. Even large number of anti-gun people think the doc is perfect and should be left alone. At best it would take way more than most people are willing to do.. see my other post about how little people can be bothered to call their Senators. My bet is no one will this week except those that want the guns left alone.

 Robbie Parry wrote:
The pro-gun crowd seem to think "good guy with a gun" has a clear shot every time.


Very much not true. In fact there are whole classes devoted towards training to shoot when the target isn't clear. There are numerous targets that have "no shoots" in front of shoot targets. It's what a lot of Police train towards and that same training trickles down to the civilians that don't want to make a mistake (though it happens, just because you spend a lifetime shooting doesn't mean you won't miss) if they're in that position. If anything it's all about minimizing the risks, not removing them. In the legal class I was part of (which I believe should be required if you're going to own a gun) they spoke a lot of how complicated any shooting is in regards to the law.

 John Byrne wrote:
A crack shot who, for instance, could have "returned fire" on the church shooter, and hit only his target, and none of the panicked parishioners between the "good" shooter and the bad one. They also seem to assume gun ownership comes with some degree of time travel, as claims ignore the amount of time for the "good" shooter to get his gun(s) out, while the assailant was still shooting.


With the exception of the time travel part, that's what happened in the Texas church shooting. The neighbor got his AR and returned fire on the church shooter hitting him and causing him to flee. He and another then chased the church shooter in a truck (which is so bizarre, but not sure it was a bad thing) until the church shooter lost control. They held him there until the police arrived. I've yet to see anyone say that if the neighbor hadn't done gotten involved with his gun there wouldn't have been a much larger body count.

This isn't to say this was a perfect "here's what'll always happen" thing. It's just something that worked out better than if the neighbor didn't have both a gun and training as the police were a ways away and who knows how many more people would have died without that neighbor. 
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John Byrne
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

This isn't to say this was a perfect "here's what'll always happen" thing. It's just something that worked out better than if the neighbor didn't have both a gun and training as the police were a ways away and who knows how many more people would have died without that neighbor.

Thank you for that succinct encapsulation of why this Nation is FUCT: the very notion that (possibly) fewer dead people is an ACCEPTABLE condition.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

In various nations, I've read accounts of people wielding knives, swords, etc. And there were NO fatalities. Injuries, yes, but not fatalities. 

With a gun, in a nation where guns are freely sold, at least one civilian death is inevitable (usually more); but there have been occasions where fatalities have been avoided if someone has attempted to use a knife, sword, bat, etc.

That doesn't mean NO-ONE has ever been killed by such things, merely that if a guy walked into a UK classroom with a knife, there is a definite chance of fatalities being avoided; with a gun, at least one, usually more, deaths are inevitable. 
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 1:55pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Even large number of anti-gun people think the doc is perfect and should be left alone. At best it would take way more than most people are willing to do.. see my other post about how little people can be bothered to call their Senators. My bet is no one will this week except those that want the guns left alone. 


The media's manipulation of the news cycle contributes to this... but I'm hopeful that people are finally fed up with our government's inability to push better gun reform which includes mental health issues. This should be the top priority headed into the midterm elections (let's see how that turns out!)... hold every politician accountable for their alliance with the NRA and gun manufacturers.

-C!
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 10 November 2017 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

I was in no way trying to romanticize hand to hand weapons over ranged weapons... merely pointing out that it takes some skill to use properly, and while anyone can be nuts, a gun is so much simpler to obtain and use that one needs literally no discipline to use one. I greatly doubt that someone goes to one judo or MMA class and is instantly a killing machine; similarly, I believe that one fencing class does not turn a person into D'artagnan. 

As for the difference between standard vs automatic weapons... a gun is still used only to kill. And the government may track sales of automatic weapons... but it doesn't seem to do much good.

Of course, Trump's easing up on the restrictions of gun sales to those mental defectives didn't help anything. But - as is so horrifically obvious - guns are still the weapon of choice for quick and easy killing.
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 14 November 2017 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

This is becoming routine, isn't it?


*sigh*

-C!
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Philippe Negrin
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Posted: 15 November 2017 at 2:44am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

How many examples are there in American history of an armed isolated gun owner succesfully preventing a shooting ?
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