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Adam Schulman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 July 2017
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 12:14pm | IP Logged | 1
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Moore was poking fun at DC. Specifically, the idea that the main Earth where all the mainstream version of superheroes and supervillains lived was necessarily "Earth-One." He decided to label the main Marvel Earth as "616" in order to deflate the idea of a "main" Earth.
That's fine for an idea that gets mentioned only once. But Marvel writers just wouldn't let go of it.
And the idea that all the various Marvel timelines from What If? or Exiles or wherever need numbers -- it's sheer lunacy.
And if licensed characters like the Transformers or Godzilla or whatever interact with Spider-Man, the Avengers, etc., and then Marvel loses permission to use said characters, just never mention it again. Absolutely no need to think of Earth-such-and-such.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 2
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And if licensed characters like the Transformers or Godzilla or whatever interact with Spider-Man, the Avengers, etc., and then Marvel loses permission to use said characters, just never mention it again. Absolutely no need to think of Earth-such-and-such.
***
Absolutely!
We enjoy the adventures for what they are. We are aware that, outside the continuity of the books, licenses lapse. We know that a licensed character who is published by Marvel today may be with IDW or DC tomorrow. It's no problem.
Designating earths for these crossovers is a bizarre thing to do. So just because a licence lapses, we suddenly need a designation for the Godzilla VS Avengers adventures, another designation for the Spider-Man/Transformers team-up, etc.
I liked how the early DC/Marvel crossovers adopted the shared earth approach. It was cool. When I read those, I thought about how great that Spider-Man and Superman were on the same world, but of course, that was designated as Earth-2353JK7864U or whatever, wasn't it?
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16430
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 1:17pm | IP Logged | 3
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Adam Schulman wrote:
| ...That's fine for an idea that gets mentioned only once. But Marvel writers just wouldn't let go of it... |
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In fairness, from what I recall, it was some of the more extreme fans rather than the writers who initially took the concept of Earth-616 too far. I remember first learning about it on fan websites and message boards where fans referred to the MU as we know it as Earth-616. The comics (other than Moore's story) didn't refer to 616 as such until later. It seems to me that writers adopted that idea only after these extreme fans started using the term.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 1:18pm | IP Logged | 4
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It seems to me that writers adopted that idea only after these extreme fans started using the term.
***
Definitely a case of the tail wagging the dog!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 5
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616 is the Number of the Beast in some versions of the Bible.
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Robbie Parry
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | 6
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I wish I'd known that once I got 616 followers on Twitter. When I got to 666, I begged for an extra follower. I hate that number!
I'll be avoiding 616 equally now.
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Matt Hawes
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 7
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I wonder if Moore used that number intentionally, based on that Biblical trivia? I would think he is aware of that information. Hmm.
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Shane Matlock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 August 2012
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 4:14pm | IP Logged | 8
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Earth 616: Another case of writers slavishly following an one off idea by Moore and making it continuity, much like the crippling of Batgirl, which was never meant to be in continuity. Even Alan Moore hates The Killing Joke (though he always praises the art by Brian Bolland). He considers it one of the worst things he's ever written.
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Robbie Parry
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | 9
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It's pedantic on the part of the industry, but even more pedantic when fans get into it. A comic forum years ago had one guy asking what earth the Superman/Spider-Man team-ups took place on.
WHO CARES?!
They took place on...earth. A hero from Metropolis teamed up with a hero from New York. Enough said. It doesn't have to be convoluted.
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Brian Hague
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Joined: 14 November 2006
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 6:05pm | IP Logged | 10
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It's been a while since I've read them, but Moore's references to Earth-616 in Captain Britain are further undercut by the story's eventual revelation that the extra-dimensional Merlin and his daughter Roma are essentially phonies, largely self-appointed authorities over universal matters, so the idea that they designate Marvel-Earth as 616 would be meaningless to just about everyone else.
About Godzilla in the MU, Iron Man 193 features Dr. Demonicus from the old Godzilla comics and he claims to have captured his greatest enemy and transformed him via experimentation into the creature shown here on the cover. So, if you want Godzilla to still exist in the MU, he is there... sort of...
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Brian Hague
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | 11
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Robbie, that debate as to which Earth played host to the Superman/Spider-Man team-up was raised on-panel in What If #1, echoing fan concerns from that time. The Watcher explains in his introduction that questions still exist as to which Earth the battle between Spider-Man and a certain well-known space alien took place.
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Robbie Parry
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| Posted: 13 October 2017 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | 12
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Robbie, that debate as to which Earth played host to the Superman/Spider-Man team-up was raised on-panel in What If #1, echoing fan concerns from that time.
***
More tail wagging the dog, it would seem. Had I been editor of WHAT IF?, or any other title for that matter, I'd have either thrown away such letters or dismissed them with a glib remark.
I cannot understand what a fan could have gained from having such concerns. Superman met Spider-Man. Twice. They both live on the east coast. Such a meeting was inevitable. I don't know what fan concerns existed at the time, but it sounds like such fans had far too much time on their hands - and editors should have ignored such concerns.
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