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John Byrne
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 9:38am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Like I say elsewhen... If, in the end, the subject is PROVEN to be guilty in a Court of Law... Then & ONLY then should condemnation, ridicule, blacklisting, etc., occur.

As already noted, such circumstances are ideal (in a perfect world), tho they become less important when the accused has confessed!

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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

@Shane: This is exactly what I'm NOT trying to debate...

If the subject has admitted guilt, then it most definitely is NOT a "he said, she said" case.

That said, in OTHER cases in which the subject has NOT admitted guilt & there is a possibility that the subject just might actually be innocent, that person should be allowed the opportunity to defend themselves without dealing with all of this bandwagon jumping "court of public opinion" hogwash that permeates attempts at intelligent discussion/debates.

Oh & whenever anyone tries to play the "numbers" game in which it is implied that "so many people coming together with the same or similar story" should be considered in the right, I say let history show you how fair that was during the Salem Witch Trials.

Sure, that's an extreme example, but it does showcase that "mob mentality" does not create a fair & just result.
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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 9:48am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

@JB: My reaction is to get all Southern & say...

YUP!
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 12:05pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Oh & whenever anyone tries to play the "numbers" game in which it is implied that "so many people coming together with the same or similar story" should be considered in the right, I say let history show you how fair that was during the Salem Witch Trials.

-----

A more modern example would be the McMartin Preschool trials. That being said, in the cases of Cosby and Weinstein, the number of women coming out SHOULD be a consideration. We live in a society that still stigmatizes and victimizes people, especially women, for being sexual assault and rape victims. That a lot of professional women with few to no connections to each other except for knowing the accused are all saying the same thing can't be ignored. It should not be the ONLY factor, but it definitely is a strong factor. 
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Most of the names mentioned in this thread too (Knowles, Weinstein, etc) have at least partially confessed after saying they needed to get help. Funny how they never sought help BEFORE they got exposed/caught.

Edited by Shane Matlock on 15 October 2017 at 12:35pm
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Oddly enough, it's since come out that Courtney Love warned women to stay away from Weinstein and his hotel rooms back in 2005 and everyone just assumed it was Courtney Love being controversial, when she was spot on. She said saying that in an interview got her blackballed at her agency. This emphasizes why a lot of these women stayed quiet in the press for years.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 15 October 2017 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"Most of the names mentioned in this thread too (Knowles, Weinstein, etc) have at least partially confessed after saying they needed to get help. Funny how they never sought help BEFORE they got exposed/caught."


You can kind of say that they were "helping themselves".
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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
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Posted: 16 October 2017 at 7:22am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

@Michael... I agree for the most part.

However, it seems to me between the two (Bill Cosby & Harvey Weinstein), the accusers in the Cosby case just seem far less credible in my view.
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David Miller
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Posted: 16 October 2017 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

 Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. wrote:
However, it seems to me between the two (Bill Cosby & Harvey Weinstein), the accusers in the Cosby case just seem far less credible in my view.

Big surprise. 

Edited by David Miller on 16 October 2017 at 9:24am
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Michael Casselman
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Posted: 16 October 2017 at 11:39am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

the accusers in the Cosby case just seem far less credible in my view

________________

What criteria are you basing that off of?

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Doug Jones
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Posted: 16 October 2017 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

...the accusers in the Cosby case just seem far less credible in my view...

--

All 50+ of them...?
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 16 October 2017 at 6:19pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Is it because they aren't famous? Or because Cosby was beloved and no one gives a shit about Weinstein? Cosby's accusers don't have anything more to gain than Weinstein's accusers, though I guess Weinstein's accusers have much more to lose. Cosby himself admitted to stuff in his civil trial a few years back.

Edited by Shane Matlock on 16 October 2017 at 6:20pm
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 17 October 2017 at 7:50am | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Scott Rosenberg weighs in:

Everybody F**king Knew
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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
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Posted: 17 October 2017 at 8:07am | IP Logged | 14 post reply

From the get-go of the Bill Cosby case, I've just had negative vibes about the whole thing. Nothing I can really pinpoint. It all just seemed too convenient & after doing some research, far too many of the accusers seemed less & less credible.

And whether it's 5, 50 or 500, I never let numbers influence my view. This whole "where there's smoke, there's fire" THING is also not a factor for me. I look for available facts, whenever possible.

And regarding Bill Cosby's admittance, far too many gloss over the context of that. People simply assume that Bill Cosby admitted to drugging women, when that is not factual at all. All it takes is reading the actual statements made in the deposition & one can clearly "see" exactly what he was admitting to. And it's not what so many are LED to believe,

Please research before jumping to conclusions. That's one of my pet peeves when I debate with people. When they start quoting things out of context or very obviously have absolutely no clue what they are talking about (they blindly follow the herd of ostriches), then I realize they are full of BS & the debate ends early.

This "comparison shopping" between Harvey Weinstein & Bill Cosby has only one common factor... They are both accused of horrible crimes. Apparently Harvey Weinstein has admitted to what he is being accused of... Bill Cosby has not.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 17 October 2017 at 8:32am | IP Logged | 15 post reply

...after doing some research...

Do you have access to information to which the rest of us are not party?

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David Miller
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Posted: 17 October 2017 at 9:30am | IP Logged | 16 post reply

It may be irrational, even distaff of me, but I'm going to go ahead and continue favoring the first hand testimony of dozens of victimized women over Paul's "negative vibes." 
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 17 October 2017 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Weinstein hasn't admitted to raping anyone. He's just said he has a problem and he's admitted to the absolute least he can without admitting anything that will put him in prison. He's calling most of the women liars just like Cosby has, but says he was part of a different generation, implying all of his putting women in situations where he's masturbated in front of them and gotten naked and asked for massages and grabbed their boobs and crotches, because his  generation of men thought rampant sexual harassment and intimidation and sexual assault were part of being powerful and rich. Cobsy settled in the past just like Weinstein did. Not as many times, but he settled and got a gag order just like Weinstein and likely for the exact same reasons. It's funny too how Cosby has acted helpless and blind throughout his criminal trial, but he wasn't too helpless and blind just prior to that when he was touring and had a new show planned for Netflix. 
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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 17 October 2017 at 11:59am | IP Logged | 18 post reply

By the way, Paul. Here's the transcript of his civil trial and Cosby absolutely admits to giving women drugs so he could have sex with them. The few times his lawyers aren't completely obstructing the trail anyway.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2158445-cosby-deposi tion.html

"Q. When you got the Quaaludes, was it in your mind that you were going to use these Quaaludes for young women that you wanted to have sex with? 

Cosby: Yes."

Bear in mind too that Quaaludes were tranquilizers. He doesn't admit to giving it to women without their consent, but that's likely because his lawyer deflected that question so he couldn't answer it. He never answered the question. 
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 17 October 2017 at 12:10pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

After doing some research, Shane appears to have uncovered some info that shows the accusers are more and more credible.
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Shaun Barry
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Posted: 17 October 2017 at 8:32pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply


And over at the Screen Junkies YouTube pages, no new video uploads in close to 2 weeks...

Makes you wonder if they're in the middle of a major overhaul, or closing up shop...?




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Shane Matlock
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Posted: 17 October 2017 at 11:36pm | IP Logged | 21 post reply

Now Bob Weinstein is having women coming forward talking about how he sexually harassed them, too. If The Weinstein Company wasn't finished before (and it likely was based on all the accounts I've read of people and companies abandoning that sinking ship), it most assuredly is finished now.



Edited by Shane Matlock on 17 October 2017 at 11:37pm
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Eric Ladd
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Posted: 19 October 2017 at 7:46am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Have any conspiracy theories poked up about Harvey's behavior yet? His actions have been widely known yet never uncovered for decades. Did he cross the wrong person or exceed his ability to cover things up? Personally, I wonder if the reaction to Weinstein is in some way driven by the public's inability to do the same with Trump. Nothing ever seems to stick to this charlatan president and when stories of his behavior on and off set surfaced, including audio, not one bit of retribution was doled out. Weinstein deserves every bit of both barrels aimed directly at him, but why now? What happened that got the trigger pulled?
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John Byrne
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Beam Me Up, Scotty!

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Posted: 19 October 2017 at 8:43am | IP Logged | 23 post reply

And over at the Screen Junkies YouTube pages, no new video uploads in close to 2 weeks...

Makes you wonder if they're in the middle of a major overhaul, or closing up shop...?

And yet people still drive Volkswagens.............

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Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
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Posted: 19 October 2017 at 11:29am | IP Logged | 24 post reply

@JB: I have the same access to information that everyone else is using. It just seems that I decided to actually READ the information & not jump to certain conclusions.

My main point of contention is with those that attempt to "prove" that Bill Cosby is guilty because he admitted to drugging women in a deposition. Many people latched onto this deposition to aid in their agenda, but the fact of the matter is that Mr. Cosby, in the deposition in question that so many try to use as "proof," does not admit to drugging anyone. What he does state is that he offered the drugs. No where does it state that he forced drugs on anyone. 

What most of these people seem to be unaware of, mainly because they are apparently not interested in factual information, is that the drug in question, Quaaludes, was back then considered to be a "party drug," especially in Hollywood circles. It was quite popular to use as a sedative & a sleeping pill because it was less addictive than other similar drugs. It later became popular as a recreational drug because it produced an intense euphoric high not long after the initial drowsy phase. It's no coincidence that it had the nickname of "The Love Drug."

Anyway, I fully realize that even though I did my due diligence by researching these facts, there are still going to be people bound & determined to condemn Bill Cosby based on false facts.

Seems like Shane "uncovered" information that I have already put forth while debating others elsewhen from practically the very beginnings of this case (see where my research led to above).

-----
And once again, this "comparison shopping" is proving absolutely nothing. Bill Cosby is mainly being accused of what I have stated above. Settling out of court does not automatically indicate quilt. Wishful thinking does not a fact make.

And while Bill Cosby's blindness is a definite fact (Keratoconus), there is no indication that he is using his condition to influence anyone in his favor. The ostriches & witch-hunters would like to believe this though, which is pathetic.

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@David Miller: While I don't consider your stance to be irrational (it most certainly is distaff, however), I disagree that one should automatically proclaim someone as guilty until they have been proven to be so in a court of law.

My "negative vibes" kicked in when so many started coming forth AFTER Bill Cosby said some unflattering things that apparently offended certain muckety mucks. Coinciding with Hannibal Buress' comedic accusations, of course.

The timing was TOO convenient.
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John Byrne
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Beam Me Up, Scotty!

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Posted: 19 October 2017 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

@JB: I have the same access to information that everyone else is using. It just seems that I decided to actually READ the information & not jump to certain conclusions.

Welcome to my IGNORE list.

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