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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 5:32am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I come very close to agreeing with this whole list!

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 6:04am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I agree with quite a bit of that list (does anyone like "Spock's Brain"?).

"Regeneration" is an episode I can enjoy if I immerse myself in, but it doesn't stand up to even a cursory scrutiny. 

I feel there's a good film buried *somewhere* within STAR TREK V. I found a lot of satisfaction during the "God" scene (that's the atheist in me). But it sure could have been a lot better. There's a lot I'd have changed about it. To be honest, I'll have it on as "background" noise nowadays, but it's only the 6-minute "God scene" that I enjoy.

I've really seen little of VOYAGER and ENTERPRISE. Why on earth did they give the final episode of ENTERPRISE a TNG story?

I will confess that GENERATIONS is a guilty pleasure. I am aware of my mindset at the time, though. I enjoyed the production values a lot (it was around this time I started noticing things like lighting and special effects). I don't think there's much in the film that is boring. It's nice to see Kirk and Picard together. Again, though, much like "Regeneration", there's a lot that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It does feel like two different films at times, e.g. the Data/emotion scenes are glossed over.

Either haven't seen the rest on the list or don't recall them.

And. Mr Byrne, I will always think of your "Picard never left the Nexus" theory whenever I think of the later TNG films. :)
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 6:08am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Very briefly, I found this an odd sentence about STAR TREK V:


 QUOTE:
Shatner expressed his frustration on the film, as the production scrapped a planned climax due to budget issues and to date, the events of the film have not been referred to in any subsequent Trek entry.

Why would there have been a reason to refer to those events in subsequent entries?

Kirk and co. had little-to-no reason to talk about those events in STAR TREK VI. Or GENERATIONS. And why would the TNG crew be referring to a time when Kirk met "God"?

Besides, how do we know they haven't? We don't see everything that occurs in a character's life. Off-screen, who's to say Riker and Worf didn't refer to a 70+year old mission where Kirk met a fake god?

Just feels that a comment like that is in a similar ballpark to "Where were the Avengers when Galactus invaded?" or "Why hadn't Spider-Man referred to Superman prior to their first team-up?"


Edited by Robbie Parry on 27 September 2017 at 6:09am
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 6:26am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Just feels that a comment like that is in a similar ballpark to "Where were the Avengers when Galactus invaded?" or "Why hadn't Spider-Man referred to Superman prior to their first team-up?"

Footnote Fever! One of the worst things to infect fandom in all the time I have been watching. And ultimately the engine that drives increasingly anal and archeological storytelling.

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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 6:33am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Indeed.

I noticed this years ago when someone asked why Spider-Man had never referred to Superman prior to the 1976 crossover. 

One, it's an anal question; two, how do we know? We are not privy to every detail of a character's life. Off-panel (if that's the right term), how do we know Peter Parker didn't watch a news report from Metropolis and mention Superman to Mary Jane?

I have an uncle. Called Mark. You've never heard of him, right? Never mentioned him. Why would I? He exists, though. But there has to be a first time for everything. So now the forum knows of him!

It just felt like a bizarre comment. I can't think of anything off-hand, but I am sure there must be TNG episodes where a TOS mission/moment of history was mentioned. It's just that there's no valid reason I can see why anyone after STAR TREK V would have needed to refer to that rather pointless non-entity "God" (I like the scene, but he hardly represented a big threat and was defeated quickly).
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 7:05am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

When word got out that I was gearing up to start X-MEN: THE HIDDEN YEARS, and that one of the stories would include a meeting with Ororo before she joined there team, there was an explosion of grumbling across X-Men fan sites. How could this be?? It had never been mentioned before!!!!!

Setting aside the fact that Alex Summers had "never been mentioned before" until he showed up in an issue one day, or that no mention had been made of Xavier having a half brother.... Well, I pointed out that the team had a LONG flight back from Krakoa, and there was plenty of time for Jean and Storm to recognize each other "off-camera". This was, in fact, a big part of the reason I chose Ororo for the guest shot. Her backstory made it easier to build an "unencumbered" meeting.

(Sadly, I was really doing HIDDEN YEARS about 20 years too late. The audience that would have cheered to see those "missing stories" filled in was mostly long gone.)

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

This reminds me of your own use of "new" Enterprise sets in NEW VISIONS. In TOS, of course, we only saw a relatively small percentage of the ship's interior, so there's certainly room for exploring areas we haven't seen before. 

I think the grumbling comes down to fans having everything memorized, and not wanting between-panels moments/reveals/retcons, because then it turns out that they didn't really know "everything".
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I think the grumbling comes down to fans having everything memorized, and not wanting between-panels moments/reveals/retcons, because then it turns out that they didn't really know "everything".

There's a curious dichotomy. Some fans embrace the "between-panels" stories, even when they make no sense, while others, as noted, reject the suggestion that there is still more to learn.

Sifting thru the reactionary complaints about MAN OF STEEL, I realized that many of them sprang, sight unseen, from the notion that the playing field had been leveled, and they no longer knew MORE than other people at the comic shop.

It made me realize how nearly impossible it would have been to have launched the Silver Age if such thinking had been a strong presence back then.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 9 post reply


 QUOTE:
When word got out...

Oh, for the days when no "words" escaped!
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Marten van Wier
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 12:25pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

"Regeneration" is an episode I can enjoy if I immerse myself in, but it doesn't stand up to even a cursory scrutiny.

*****

I have also mentioned before in other posts that "Regeneration" is sort of a guilty pleasure of mine even though I admit that the story is completely inappropriate for the era Enterprise takes place in and that the connections to "Q Who" are weak and unnecessary.

I just really like the Borg and this episode was in general an improvement over many of the Voyager episodes the Borg appeared in after "Scorpion" and "Drone".

For the rest I am not disagreeing with this selection of bad episodes at all, I would probably add quite some more to it but to clearly make up which ones I would probably have to watch all the series again.
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

There is no justice.

NEMESIS didn't even make the list!

You'd also think the episode where Dr. Crusher is raped by a ghost that had raped her Grandmother would probably qualify for the list, just on the ick factor alone.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Sexist! Why wasn't Picard the one who was raped?
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | 13 post reply

Sexist! Why wasn't Picard the one who was raped?

"Liasons" comes pretty close to that.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | 14 post reply

Ah, yes, NEMESIS should have been included. I know such lists are subjective, but it should have been included.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 2:05pm | IP Logged | 15 post reply

Sexist! Why wasn't Picard the one who was raped?

+++

"Liasons" comes pretty close to that.

I just read a synopsis, and unless a LOT was left out, I really hope you're being facetious!

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | 16 post reply

There's a heck of a lot of officer romances/gettin' it on under possessed/amnesiac circumstance and/or rape in TNG.

Going by memory, here (since I only just started my rewatch of TNG)...


* Riker got it on with Troi, Crusher, and Ensign Ro, as well as various other human and alien babes. One of whom pretty much forced him to ("First Contact", the episode, not the film).

* Troi and Worf. Troi mind-raped on a few occasions.

* Data and Yar, and Yar possibly being raped by, uh, rape gangs while living in the failed colony where she grew up. 

* Crusher seduced/brainwashed/raped by a ghost.

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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | 17 post reply

Riker got it on with... Crusher

-----

Dammit, I had blocked that one out. And weirdly, Crusher's moral dilemma was "How can I love someone occupying a different body?" and not "What are the ethics of sleeping with someone's body occupied by another mind... both of whom are my patients?"

They ended up tackling the same issues in STARGATE: UNIVERSE. Apparently it just required signing a waiver. :/
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John Byrne
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 5:12pm | IP Logged | 18 post reply

Going by memory, here (since I only just started my rewatch of TNG)...

TNG had how many female writers?

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Greg Kirkman
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | 19 post reply

Dorothy Fontana quit early on (in part due to Roddenberry jamming sex stuff that made the women look bad into the scripts). 

The only other name which comes to mind from my casual knowledge of TNG is Melinda Snodgrass.


Edited by Greg Kirkman on 27 September 2017 at 5:53pm
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Paul Kimball
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Posted: 27 September 2017 at 10:00pm | IP Logged | 20 post reply


One, it's an anal question; two, how do we know? We are not privy to every
detail of a character's life. Off-panel (if that's the right term), how do we
know Peter Parker didn't watch a news report from Metropolis and mention
Superman to Mary Jane?

I have an uncle. Called Mark. You've never heard of him, right? Never
mentioned him. Why would I? He exists, though. But there has to be a first
time for everything. So now the forum knows of him!
++++++++++
Works for me Robbie. This would mean though that we should be okay with
Spock's connection to Michael in the new Discovery show. I can live with
that as well.
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Eric Sofer
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 4:09am | IP Logged | 21 post reply

You know, Robbie, that that crossover between your Uncle Mark and my Aunt Carol stunk, though, right? I'm not sure they ever even MET each other! :)

Bad Trek. Sure, it had bad episodes. And as it was successful so that it's an easy target, again. And so many episodes hit the heights that it's EASY to shoot at the low hanging fruit. How many bad episodes of "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" were there? What do we have to compare them to? (No insult intended to VttBotS fans... it's just the first one I thought of.)
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 5:16am | IP Logged | 22 post reply

Good point, Eric. ;-)

I do feel that when a TNG episode was having a "good day", it really was having a good day! "The Measure of a Man" is certainly a favourite of mine, always impressed by Picard's speech.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 23 post reply

I showed the list to some - and quite a few disagreed with my points about STAR TREK V. They became tedious after a while.

Again, why should anyone in STAR TREK VI and VII (the last films to feature TOS crew) and those during the TNG era have mentioned Sybok/God/Kirk's time? 

However, perhaps they did. We followed particular shifts for the TNG crew. Who knows what Data, Worf, Geordi or others discussed in their quarters? Perhaps, off-screen, Data and Geordi discussed the time Kirk's crew and Sybok encountered a bizarre entity.

Hey (true story), I had an accident at Blackpool Pier years ago. Managed to lose a shoe, too. Why on earth didn't any of you know about it? Why on earth didn't I mention it previously? Why hasn't anyone in my life, such as family, posted about it on Facebook? They know it happened. It did happen. So why hasn't anyone mentioned it?

Simple answer: we don't discuss every event in our lives constantly. And when we do, others may not hear it. I'm not sure I ever told my late stepfather about the Blackpool Pier incident (it happened before he was in my life).

The "Why hasn't anyone mentioned STAR TREK V?" question is the worst case of Footnote Fever I've ever come across. Unbelievable. One may as well ask why Columbo didn't refer to earlier cases; and why didn't Ross Webster from SUPERMAN III make reference to Zod, Non and Ursa? 

It's silly.
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Brian Rhodes
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 24 post reply

The film is nothing more than a noisy, lazy, overproduced self-renewing loop. It fails as entertainment, and marks the absolute worst moment in Star Trek history.

Couldn't agree more. There were several attempts to recapture the KHAN magic, but this was the most blatant and the worst. A bad movie is one thing, but to suck so hard AND crap all over the best Trek film made...it's extra special. It joins TMP and TFF as a Trek movie that I'll never own on any form of home video. At least if I happen to stumble upon the other two on TV, I might watch for a bit. Not this turd.




Edited by Brian Rhodes on 28 September 2017 at 3:24pm
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Rob Ocelot
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Posted: 28 September 2017 at 4:00pm | IP Logged | 25 post reply

"Liasons" comes pretty close to that.

I just read a synopsis, and unless a LOT was left out, I really hope you're being facetious!

+++

I was.   Still a very mentally disturbing episode, and that's saying something given the number of 'mind rape' episodes done in the TNG/DS9/VOY era.

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