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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 16 September 2017 at 11:51am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Thought balloon.

Altho thought balloons do look like cartoon bubbles now, this was not always so. They began as standard speech balloons with "(thinks)" inserted in front of the dialog. They were called "thought balloons", and that is still the proper term.

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Trevor Smith
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Posted: 16 September 2017 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

It's funny, but as far back as I can remember ascribing
a word to them, I've known them as "balloons", for both
thought and speech. No idea where I picked it up, it's
just always been. Honestly, I think seeing it mentioned
time to time here is the first time I ever came across
them called "bubbles", and I have to say, it does grate.
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Drew Spence
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Posted: 16 September 2017 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Let's roll with balloon then.
Sorted.

Long as we don't go back to toilet tissue rolls.


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J W Campbell
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Posted: 16 September 2017 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

 John Byrne wrote:
Traditionally, professionals called them "balloons" and civilians called them "bubbles".

Oh, God…  don't get me started on that. I once got notes from an editor that referred to "word circles". That's everything that's wrong with the industry, right there. 
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 16 September 2017 at 2:51pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Word circles? That phrase sounds like something a civil service bureaucrat (I worked in civil service) would come up with as part of some long-term project.
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J W Campbell
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Posted: 16 September 2017 at 3:07pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 Drew Spence wrote:

I alternate the black text on white bubble or white on black depending on the backdrop of the scene. If it's dark then I like black bubbles and white text.

I also make the bubbles 5-10% transparent so that the bubbles don't pop so brightly off the page. If it wasn't for so many questions and concerns about it, I wouldn't use bubbles at all.


I have to disagree with all of this quite strenuously. 

We forget at our peril that a big chunk of our audience doesn't even get the basic conventions of the medium, because they're no longer raised on it. 

I've actively chosen to deploy a very different style of radio/TV/telephone balloon to a burst/jag balloon because a non-trivial fraction of the audience doesn't get the difference any more. 

We re-invent the wheel at the risk of confusing the readership. Changing balloon colour simply because of the b/g colour of the art requires a contextual understanding of the letterer's intent that will simply defeat a chunk of the readership. 

Simplicity and consistency enables the reader to infer intent. Limit your font choices. Limit your colour choices. It's exactly like a colour palette -- it's important to have a theme and stick to it, and vary from it, for a good reason. Lettering SHOULD be invisible. Throwing in seemingly random variations of colour, adding transparency, chucking in multiple dialogue fonts… all this stuff pulls the reader out of the story.

Don't do it. 

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Drew Spence
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Posted: 16 September 2017 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Removing the 'me' from the equation, there's a lot to consider.
Again, this isn't 'me' saying what's right or wrong, just saying what IS.

1) Today's younger audience hasn't read traditional comics...

2) Today's audience reads Memes- that's their comic panel.

3) That's what they are conditioned to understand a person + text looks like

4) Many things in comics were done for technical reasons, older readers simply see it all as the right way for a comic to look. There are things that break tradition that [insert comic pioneer] WOULD HAVE DONE if they were free to do so. So some of that stuff today seems 'wrong' because it breaks tradition. It's not about whether it's effective or even BETTER, it's about not being how some are used to seeing things done.

5) The medium is different. That 7.25 X 10.something- slender page is now as wide as their monitor. 72 DPI is the new low bar..zooming in, is an annoyance for the reader. They are conditioned to scroll. Possibly, for a huge set, the size of their phone's screen is your new canvass.

Here comes the ME part...
-----
I personally, have stepped away from the idea of making a comic.
It's not me reinventing the wheel, but I'm also not directly walking in footsteps or trying to fan-copy [insert legendary illustrator /writer] and doing what they did, because...well .... they did it 'bigly' before.

I respect the legends and I have adopted Mr. John Byrne as my unknowing surrogate mentor based on his work and creative direction. I do not know the man, never met him and will admit I am having a hard time understanding such a complicated and multi-layered person.

I am trying to tell a story in pictures.
That's it. In a new time and using a non-traditional medium.
Yes, I have learned some things were done to their best effect and THE OLD WAY is still THE RIGHT WAY.

And you are right, don't break the rules unless you know WHY the rule was written and you have a damn good reason for doing so.
There's always room for experimentation, but nothing I do is random.

Lots of people suggest using apps and software to make the balloons. I consider the balloons to be part of my art so I put the same energy into them. I think I have done several things- I've NEVER seen in comics. They *could have been done before, but I've never seen it done.

1) I use lighter grey/ink for whispers because barely being able to read something is like barely being able to hear it. People get it. Unless you read comics, how would you know marching ants around the balloon means whisper? etc...

2) In a cheeky move, I gave the sound effect text a shadow that actually is cast on the surface of the physical world. It's not a drop shadow, it's an actual shadow- as if to say the action-word was really there. It was subtle, but fun to slip in there.

3) I also take hits from people who think it needs to look more traditional. I've also made mistakes that some on here were very helpful for pointing out. EVERYONE wants their bad guy to have a distinct voice. Everyone wants to use crazy fonts...I get it, I feel it too. It LOOKS cool, but is hard to read. Balance is needed.

4) Someone read my comic and said there's no opening, establishing text. You have the shot, but not the text and they had no idea WHEN and WHERE they were. They were confused.  I said well, you see two planets and a spaceship? What does that tell you? And I could put down any arbitrary set of numbers for the year...2047, 3028, 1999 and named any planet Ta'kundir, Broo-doodie, planet-x what difference would that really make? But not only did they expect it, they wanted it. Didn't need it, they wanted it. So give it to them.

5) Everything about today's communication (not saying it's good) is condensed and sparse. They use twitter, tiny bits of information. They watch vines, short clips of video. Memes ONE PANEL. Instagram- glancing at images and like or dislike and move on. They chat- text, literally one little sentence or thought at a time.

Even their forums. Write more than one paragraph and they will say "That's too much to read".
DC is already changing the format of their digitally-delivered titles.
This is the new ocean everyone is learning to swim in.

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John Byrne
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Posted: 16 September 2017 at 8:01pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

It's had to get more "condensed and sparse" than a traditional comic book. Everything is shorthand. Yet the object of the exercise is still telling stories -- stories that are hopefully exempt from obfuscation and affectation. Grey lettering and sound effects with shadows are both.
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Robert Shepherd
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Posted: 16 September 2017 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

JW Wrote:
Simplicity and consistency enables the reader to infer intent. Limit your font choices. Limit your colour choices. It's exactly like a colour palette -- it's important to have a theme and stick to it, and vary from it, for a good reason. Lettering SHOULD be invisible. Throwing in seemingly random variations of colour, adding transparency, chucking in multiple dialogue fonts… all this stuff pulls the reader out of the story.

 Drew wrote:
4) Many things in comics were done for technical reasons, older readers simply see it all as the right way for a comic to look. There are things that break tradition that [insert comic pioneer] WOULD HAVE DONE if they were free to do so. So some of that stuff today seems 'wrong' because it breaks tradition. It's not about whether it's effective or even BETTER, it's about not being how some are used to seeing things done.

Yes, I have learned some things were done to their best effect and THE OLD WAY is still THE RIGHT WAY.

You are both right. 

Yes, many of the "traditional" decisions originated due to the restrictions of their times. Yes the golden rule of "KISS" ( i assume all have heard this rule) still applies. But if no one ever pushed the limits of design, the world would be stuck in one style forever. No need for new fonts, or color pallets, or illustrative tools, etc.

From a graphic designer's POV you need to find the balance between "tradition" and "new age". I've always told designers who worked for me design should be about evolution not revolution. Change too many things and the design will look wrong no matter how good it is. Tweak it....massage it.....but the goal should always be to make it better not just different.

Then step back....get input.....and be honest with yourself. Is what you've done better? Does it really serve the design or serve your ego? You'll get opposing opinions no matter what. Trust your gut and go with what you think is best for the reader after you have evaluated all the feedback. Time will prove to you one way or the other.


Comic book lettering has been fine tuned for so long by skilled designers so I trust those before me have ironed out the kinks. A comic book done the "traditional" way will be easy to read. A comic done the "new age" way might have more ambiance and mood. But both efforts need to be designed really well. Bad design just looks bad - no way around that.

The challenge with many new designers is they tend to over design and what they think is good design, really isn't. New designers might also believe that they are being innovators but the truth is sometimes they are innovating down a path that just doesn't work. Maybe there is a good reason no one has innovated down that path already?

I know for my own story (I'll do "some day") I plan on using multiple fonts, one for each race on my imaginary planet. No matter what, the fonts will need to look hand crafted. If I think it works ok, I'll go with it. If I think it adds too much visual clutter, I'll pull back. I'll get feedback from others of course. Maybe some other decision will be able to solve that design challenge. I'll cross that bridge when I get too it.

Drew regarding your tricks. I hope these come across as constructive.

1) Sounds logical and I like the idea. Could work as digital and have challenges with legibility as print.

2) Interesting idea. At first I'd be worried that an alien element in the art would be distracting, but I also know some comic artists have done quite well integrating sound effects into their panels as opposed to placing them on top of their panels.

3) Evolution, Not Revolution...;-)

4) Yeah....sounds like some good story telling wisdom. Readers do need context.

5) Today's communications have nothing to do with good story telling. Don't fall into that trap of trying to apply too much real life into your story telling style.

Here are a couple equations. Assume "new design idea" is a good idea.

A) Unknown artist + new design idea = criticism from traditionalists.
B) Famous artist + new design idea = "that artist is a genius!".

The challenge is how to get from A) to B)?

So in the end Drew, be educated about the history of comics (sounds like you are), and trust your gut. Go with what you believe works best once you have processed the feedback of others.




Edited by Robert Shepherd on 16 September 2017 at 10:35pm
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Robert Shepherd
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Posted: 16 September 2017 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Drew...to answer your OP. I just want a word balloon to be perfectly clear on who is speaking/thinking. I don't think you literally need to point to the mouth, but the balloons should point to where the voice originates clearly enough so the reader won't be confused.
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Drew Spence
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Posted: 16 September 2017 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Okay. Makes sense.

Don't fall into that trap of trying to apply too much real life into your story telling style.

Going to adopt this.
Balance.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 17 September 2017 at 6:13am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

There are five jobs connected with the construction of most comicbook pages: script, pencils, inks, lettering, coloring. For each, the number one requirement is the same: CLARITY.

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