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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 6:45am | IP Logged | 1
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A writer I used to know got to work with John Buscema. On the first page of his plat (Marvel style) he described a "John Buscema shot" of a closeup of a character sitting on a throne. When the art came in, Big John had shifted the angle, and the main character was sitting in the background."Why would he DO that?" asked the writer. I said "Probably he didn't like being told how to draw like John Buscema."
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 6:51am | IP Logged | 2
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When I finally struck out on my own, writing as well as drawing, some people asked why I no longer did those multiple-figure action shots I'd started using in IRON FIST. I said "Because I'm not working with Chris Claremont any more."Whatever his strengths as a writer -- and when he is good he is VERY good -- Chris is a classic case of not thinking in pictures. At least, not the kinds of snapshots we use in comics. In one of our first jobs together (written full script) he gave me a car chase to draw. Exciting in a movie, dead on a comicbook page. In fact, it is a common flaw in writers -- especially those coming in from TV and movies -- to write MOVEMENT, number one of the list of things comics don't have to offer. One script I was given (at DC) even included "pan" as an art description for a single panel. (Same script included plenty of descriptions of the expressions on the lead characters' faces, despite the fact they wore masks/helmets that did not show expression and obscured most of their faces.)
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 6:56am | IP Logged | 3
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To be fair, here, I should note that even the giants among us sometimes stumble. Case in point, this page from X-MEN 1. Observe the fourth panel.
(Don't really know what happened, there. Normally, confronted with a situation like that, the letterer would cut out the panel and move the top half to the bottom, and then letter on what was the bottom half.)
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John Popa
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 March 2008
Posts: 4368
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 7:23am | IP Logged | 4
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Were DC Comics of the 60's/70's/80's done full script? My impression has always been that 'Marvel style' was specific to Stan and his artists. Was everyone else doing full script then? Or was there some other format?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 7:31am | IP Logged | 5
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Were DC Comics of the 60's/70's/80's done full script? •• For the most part. Denny O'Neil tells a story of how the often redundant writing style of those comics, especially Silver Age, came to be. The caption would describe the scene, then at least one of the characters would also describe the scene. This was because, as noted above, the writer could never be sure he'd get what he was asking for. In specific, Denny mentioned a Western he wrote, in which he asked for a character leaping from his horse onto a stage coach, while the bad guys fired at him. What the artist drew was a closeup of a hand holding a six-shooter!
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Gundars Berzins
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 March 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 1559
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 7:42am | IP Logged | 6
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Ah yeah, I had to laugh at your Denny story JB. I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything at the time. Very interesting insights, thanks.
Edited by Gundars Berzins on 13 September 2017 at 7:44am
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Eric Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2291
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 4:21pm | IP Logged | 7
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Am I wrong in assuming that most of our favorite comics or runs were written Marvel-style? All the--
Stan Lee/Jack Kirby FANTASTIC FOUR, CAPTAIN AMERICA, THOR, etc. Stan Lee/Steve Ditko SPIDER-MAN, DR. STRANGE Stan Lee/Romita Sr. SPIDER-MAN Stan Lee/Gene Colan DAREDEVIL Claremont/Byrne X-MEN Byrne FANTASTIC FOUR MIller DAREDEVIL Simonson THOR (?) O'Neil/Adams BATMAN (even if written full script, I'm pretty sure Adams treated it as a plot) My favorite Steve Englehart, Steve Gerber, Roger Stern, Len Wein, Roy Thomas stuff at both companies (not sure about their DC stuff)
Am I wrong? At what point did people look at the favorites of their youth--the things that probably inspired them to enter the industry to begin with--and say "Oh no, that won't do"?
What ever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?
Edited by Eric Jansen on 13 September 2017 at 4:24pm
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Robert Shepherd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 March 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1268
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| Posted: 13 September 2017 at 11:44pm | IP Logged | 8
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I've never written a comic with anyone else but I always felt the Marvel Style was challenging for the artist and writer in a good way. It let the writer develop a plot without worrying about the details too much. It let the artist translate that plot into pictures and we as fans found who was talented at story telling. And it stretched the writer when he was scripting to make sure step 1(plot) + step 2(art) = step 3(a cohesive story).
I can imagine this putting a lot of pressure on the writer in the scripting phase. And I can also understand writers getting frustrated when it was time to script and the art just didn't expand on the plot effectively. but get two talented people together and the magic happens.
One side note: I've seen a-plenty in Marvel Style stories where script was added to characters in a panel just because they were in the panel by happenstance. You can feel when those are after-thoughts to make it seem in was all part of the plan.
I think it's a tough job to make a great comic.
Too many comics today are filled with poses and not true storytelling images.
Edited by Robert Shepherd on 13 September 2017 at 11:46pm
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J W Campbell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 June 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 353
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| Posted: 14 September 2017 at 3:01am | IP Logged | 9
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One of the worst scripts I ever had to letter was by a guy whose primary experience was writing for TV. Quite apart from the undeliverable lettering instructions (I don't have a font for "with growing affection") it was crammed panel descriptions like this:
3. Frank is pacing the hallway outside Jane's apartment. He lights a cigarette and checks his watch. 7:54pm. His phone goes off in his pocket. He answers it.
FRANK: Who is this?
PHONE: Better you don't know.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132239
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| Posted: 14 September 2017 at 7:55am | IP Logged | 10
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Weezi Simonson once told me of an artist she was assigned to work with who said he wanted to do more "down time" scenes, "like Claremont and Byrne taking the X-Men to a soda shop." So she included such a scene in her next plot, and when the art came back, it had been transformed into a fight scene. She asked the artist what happened. He said "Quiet pages don't sell."
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Robert Shepherd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 March 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1268
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| Posted: 14 September 2017 at 2:31pm | IP Logged | 11
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3. Frank is pacing the hallway outside Jane's apartment. He lights a cigarette and checks his watch. 7:54pm. His phone goes off in his pocket. He answers it.
****
JB, how many panels would it take you to convey that description? 1-2-3? I figure 2 at least? But knowing you, you can probably figure a way to do it in 1....;-)
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4067
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| Posted: 14 September 2017 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | 12
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Even with full script, there's a lot of leeway for the artist. Unless the writer's been given so much clout that the editor's not going to change a word of his script, artists are generally encouraged to figure out what's going to serve the story best and go with it, and the writer and editor will adjust accordingly.
If the writer--especially a new writer--isn't pacing the story correctly or is putting an impossible amount of action into a single panel, the artist is there to guide the process along, hopefully with the editor coordinating the whole team's efforts.
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